From FBI Agent to Music Maven: Tia Hoffer’s Unconventional Journey

Tia Hoffer: Usually people at the end of our lives, don't regret things we've done. We regret the things we haven't done, which I think is so true. Like, I don't really think of any regrets I have in my life. But I think the things I didn't do. Like why didn't I start this earlier? Why didn't I just start, like, what was I waiting for? What was I thinking? Start now. Start right away if there's any interest that you have in doing it, jump in, know that it's not gonna be perfect, but not starting is what you'll regret if you don't.

Becky Boyland: Welcome to Second Verse, the podcast for artists reclaiming their passion, rewriting their story, and stepping into the spotlight of their second acts. I'm your host, Becky Boyland, singer-songwriter, and StoryBrand certified brand messaging expert.

Today's guest brings together two worlds you don't often see in the same sentence: FBI special agent and production music composer. Tia Hoffer's psychology degree took her into clinical practice, but a martial arts black belt led her to a high stakes, high pressure federal law enforcement career. But she always felt the pull of creative work. After retiring, her lifelong love of music sparked curiosity, followed by a few online classes and a mindset shift that resulted in a blossoming music career.

Now she's composing for film, TV, and media with a beautifully unconventional story of what it means to pursue creative work on your own terms. Her unique life experience has given her rare insight into the emotional world of others, and she now channels that sensitivity into moving and even cathartic compositions.

This episode is full of hard earned wisdom: how to start imperfectly, how to protect your creative energy, and how it's never too late to return to your music dream. Let's dive in to Tia's Second Verse.

Welcome Tia. Thank you for being on Second Verse.

Tia Hoffer: Thanks, Becky. Appreciate it. Thanks for inviting me. This is really an exciting opportunity.

Becky Boyland: What drew you to music as a kid. What was music like for you growing up?

Tia Hoffer: So music was always part of our family. My dad would sing to us at night. And early on I started playing flute. I loved the flute. I was in orchestras, and then we took piano. I started writing songs when I was about 16 and I've just been writing ever since.

So I love to write songs. It's very, just, you know, obviously all the emotions and things that you can put in there was a good therapeutic exercise for me. So I enjoyed doing that. So music was always there.

but in,terms of actually being a career, I didn't realize how many different opportunities music had available.

It wasn't just being an artist. It was a lot of other things. But, at some point wanted to learn taiko. My mom is Japanese, so taiko is a Japanese drumming. You've probably seen those big, huge drums.

Becky Boyland: Oh yes.

Tia Hoffer: And a whole group of folks. So it was very much tied to martial arts, which I was taking at the time as well. So it felt like martial arts and music combined, which I loved.

I performed in a group for a few years doing that in Los Angeles, which was great. And then I just always found the music people wherever I, I worked. There was always some folks who played guitar or bass and we'd always get together and start playing music and sometimes writing together or playing cover tunes.

But it was always a part of my life. I bought my first car, by playing in this '90s cover band. So, I was the only girl, I was underage. I'd have to sit in the kitchen. And, uh, but they paid me. And I was able to purchase my first car, which was exciting.

So yeah, music has always been a part of my life, but wasn't my career. So that's what was very different.

Becky Boyland: So you had just a teeny tiny little bit of a career there to get a car out of it.

Tia Hoffer: Yeah, exactly.

Becky Boyland: That's pretty great.

Tia Hoffer: I know the most money I made in music was that, but that wasn't the main focus. I always was told, oh no, you need a job. how are you gonna actually make money and support yourself? So it was always on the side, but it was always really important.

Becky Boyland: It's amazing really how that is the default mode for anyone who's giving recommendations to artists growing up. What you're doing is great, but it's not gonna be a job. As much as we see of art and music all around us, that's just the way we still view it is, eh, but that's not really a serious thing.

Tia Hoffer: I know. Yeah, it is too bad. And I have to say, I really respect the people who just say, this is my love, I'm gonna do this. And they just commit to it a hundred percent, right? They don't do the other jobs, you know, maybe little things just to pay the bills, but they know that's their dream and they go for it.

So I have tremendous respect for that. And it was one of the things where I was like, oh, I didn't even know you could choose that. Like, oh, is that a choice? And all the different options, right? You don't even have to be a live performing artist, there's other things, and in my personality, I'm pretty much a shy, introverted side of the continuum.

So because of that, I think the performing piece of it, I loved the creative part, the writing singing and playing music, but the actual performing part of it wasn't really natural to me. So it was like, no, that probably isn't a great fit for me.

Becky Boyland: I think a lot of artists or prospective artists would be surprised at the opportunities that are out there that go way beyond that. So that's absolutely true. It's lots they don't talk about when we're trying to pick our careers in high school, but there are just so many more opportunities.

Tia Hoffer: Right. I know. You wish there was a little bit more of that in terms of saying, Hey, you can make money doing these things along with creating music that might take longer to get to the point you want to be. But yes, I wasn't aware of those things either.

So yeah, something to promote, in the future.

Becky Boyland: Yes, indeed.

But you did have a fascinating career so talk about the career that you had before you came back to music.

Tia Hoffer: Sure. Yeah. So, I always loved, psychology and loved trying to figure out, you know, why people do what they do and how are people feeling, and that was just very natural to me. So that's why I fell into it. I became a psychologist and worked with, children, adolescents, college age students, and also worked in the jail with, inmates

So all of that was really, really interesting, really fascinating. And then I started taking martial arts, as I had mentioned, and it's a Korean form called Hapkido in Los Angeles. And that really brought me to meet people who were in the FBI.So they said there's a lot of psychology applications in the FBI and I'm like, really?

Besides, you know, interviewing, interrogations, there's also profiling, which I think a lot of people have heard about because of "Criminal Minds," right? That kind of brought it to the forefront. So people always tease me about, oh, you wanna be a profiler? But that really did apply, coming together, the psychological piece of it, and really trying to understand why people commit these crimes?

Why are some people violent? And, really understand how to investigate and, prosecute individuals who commit those crimes. Instead of. Meeting with the person individually and assessing them, you're assessing a crime scene or a situation where the crime has been committed. Who would've done this type of crime and helping law enforcement to find those folks and for the FBI.

So it was a great job. I really enjoyed the work. You could do research, which I loved in a combined psychology too. So researching subjects, interviewing subjects, applying the information we gleaned to cases and ongoing cases to help solve some of those, uh, serial murders.

We worked a lot with the children, so as child exploitation, child pornography, kidnappings, homicides. So it was a lot of really intense crimes. And so, yeah, it was interesting to have to process that. Emotionally. and that's where I think music, the convergence of the music is in some way cathartic, right?

That you could express some of those emotions, through the music at the time as well. So that's why music was always there and was always a, sort of a therapy in a lot of ways for me. so the career, that was great.

I didn't think I ever could, because it just seemed so overwhelming. Just learning. At times I'd kind of tried to do it, open up the DAW, and just would be like, oh my gosh, this is too much, I can't. My brain doesn't think that way. Right? My brain doesn't work that way. And yeah, more people oriented and understanding people, but, not machines.

And so it was a huge steep learning curve, but in terms of the music production, when I found Kris Bradley's course, "Produce Like a Boss," that was the first time someone spoke to me in a way that I could understand. Like, oh, that's what she means. Oh, how to do that. And, you know, it takes you step by step, to understand how to produce the music.

So that was really eye-opening and I loved it. And I just jumped in and all of a sudden, things were coming together in terms of the music and how important it was to produce your own music, because it was your vision. Your emotions and trying to find the ways to express that through the music was my own.

I had other people try and produce some things and some I liked and some were like, I don't really care for that. But I couldn't express how I wanted it to be different, to fit what I was envisioning or experiencing, so it was so wonderful to be able to do that. but it was hard.

It really does keep a steep learning curve. And then Kris brought me to, meet, Gabriel Candiani, and the Production Music Masterclass. And that took to a different level because people kept saying, "sound selection, sound selection." I was like, I don't understand what that means.

Like, I'm picking a guitar, I'm picking a, you know.But when, he compared and he actually played for me, like, here's a brass. You see this brass doesn't fit with this genre. You know, this is brass for cinematic. Oh, this brass is going be something more for, you know, sports rock, or something is gonna be its intent.

Oh... and that was the first sort of light bulb moment that I realized what sound selection meant and how to utilize that more effectively in terms of what I'm trying to achieve and the emotion I'm trying to achieve. So that was really kind of bringing me back to music because, as you know, I'm older and, having retired from one job realizing this is on my bucket list,if I'm not gonna do it now, when, right? It's just like, come on, Tia, just get this together. And, so that was what made me realize I need to do this. And so my bucket list is having a song placed in a music library ready for licensing and licensed to something. So that was my, just, just like one song. So that was my initial goal, in terms of music production.

That's what really, drew me back and I'm so excited I was able to expand in this area and learn something new. It was just exciting to learn something new.

Becky Boyland: It's always so great too when you can have that one goal and we'll end up talking about this a little bit more, but you have that one goal and then you blow past that and you've accomplished, way more than that. But it is also, when it comes to production, there's so much inside language and it does make it really almost unattainable.

And it's not that it's as difficult as it is to actually do it as it is to have the conversation. Even saying to a producer, this is what I want, but you're at a point where you can't extract it from your brain and you don't have the language that they use. that transformation of being able to train your ear to understand, Oh, this is that sound that I'm looking for, and this is what makes it distinctive.

I love your illustration of brass because any type of instrument, whether it's brass or guitars or strings, have different flavors depending on how they're used. And a lot of it's how it's processed, but sometimes it's how it's performed. It's one thing to say, well, I want brass here. And it's another to say, I want this kind of brass that has this type of feature and this type of tone and this type of EQ.

That is where you've stepped over the edge, like, I now get this. Those are those huge leaps in what you can accomplish in doing your own production or even just having the conversation if somebody else is producing for you and tell them what you really want rather than leaving it up to their own devices.

it's so hard when they are crafting something on your behalf, but it doesn't sound like you. That's such a powerful way to take back your own music and gain that skill to be able to produce for yourself.

Tia Hoffer: Right. It really is, like you said, you have the language to communicate, even if you're trying to get somebody else, which I'm gonna be doing that I guess coming up soon, having some live instruments instead of the box, and how do I explain what I want?

And then sometimes they're probably more skilled than I'm like, I'm not a drummer, unless you're gonna do taiko, which I don't think applies to all genres. They may be the experts more than I, though I do know if it sounds right. The biggest thing is does it sound good? Does it sound good to you? That's the final determination. But yes, having that language and being able to pull some sampled sounds, can give them an illustration of, here's what I want it to sound like, but you make it better, right? Because you're the, uh, expert drummer or guitarist or whatever it is.

Becky Boyland: It's nice when you can get past the point where you're just using sound effects to explain a drum pattern where you can actually say, oh, I want you to do, a tom groove or something like that. right, exactly. that was one of my pandemic projects learning to play drums. I don't actually play them to record them or put them on my tracks, but partly it's just for fun. Although I was so excited when I got to a point where I could hold down a groove.

But the other part of it is just understanding, because when I process and when I program drums, I wanna make sure I'm creating something that actually could be played. And it's not that—occasionally, obviously if you're doing electronic drums, you will layer things that just no one could play. But there comes a point when it just sounds so busy and crazy that it's not enjoyable because it feels so not human.

And it's really helpful when I can, follow a fill across. and that's one of the big things especially fills, making fills sound human. And, it also has helped me to tell my, human drummers, Oh, this is the kind of groove that I want. And to actually be able to talk to them in language that they understand

So it really does elevate your capabilities across a wide berth of,of musicianship to be able to have those conversations as well as craft your own music with that deeper knowledge and understanding.

Tia Hoffer: It is so true. It's interesting because like you have used or listened to various flute sounds and they don't sound like flute to me. Right. And I'm sure, you know, string players , everybody feels the same way. There's something, like you said, you lose that element of humanity, right.

The humanness, and especially with any kind of woodwind, you know, there's no, well, they're not breathing or there isn't any variation and things. Sometimes you can layer those things and it sounds like you can support your, instrumentation with, something sampled, but you want something human in there too, so, so yeah.

That's very true.

Becky Boyland: So talk about the kind of music that you produce and your process. I get the sense that there's a lot of your psychology that goes back into your music as well, and I think that's really fascinating.

Tia Hoffer: Yeah, and I didn't realize—it's so interesting working with, Gabriel—what came out was my love of dark cinematic, heavy, instrumentation and music. I created this, "Creepy Xmas" album,that was, placed with Gabriel at Warner Chappell. It came very naturally to me and I really enjoyed it.

I'm like, that's so not me. Like people I don't think would see me that way.And I realized in some ways it was a purgingof what I've taken in through my career. Working in psychology, you're dealing with trauma, you're dealing with the depression, anxiety, just very, you know, crises, very heavy, topics.

People don't come to therapy when they're happy and, you know, life is going well, right? So usually there's different challenges. and then, you know, my FBI work was very heavy in terms of, like we talked about homicides, and just really the darkest parts of humanity and how people treat others sometimes. I think that was being purged and is being purged through that: the dark,songs, dark pop songs, cinematic songs. It feels good to do that. It feels, very much like I'm releasing some of those. So yeah, I didn't realize that. And then when it was so, like, this feels very natural for me to do it, and it was sort of a weird fit, for me. But I've really enjoyed that.

And thenI've collaborated with Paul Harris, Gabriel and also with Kris. And, we've done EDM, which was really completely outta my comfort zone. That was fun. And those songs have been, placed in another library. We've done some promo pop and every so often try and do happy songs.

That's my challenge. It's like, "Do a happy song... what?" And then once I did a song it was supposed to be a happy child song. And they're like, no, it still sounds more like, like fantasy, and I'm like, really? And that was the happiest I could be. So... I'm hoping that will come to me eventually.

But yeah, the happy stuff is my challenge where some people that comes naturally, right, for them to do kind of the happy stuff. So that's been the impetus, you know, in terms of some of the current, or maybe more recent past things that I've done is more the darker, and I do enjoy that.

So hopefully that'll purge away at some point and then I'll shift into some other things. I'm hoping so.

Becky Boyland: I know for me, I will get in a particular mood or feeling of songs Just trying to do something else feels so false.

I think breaking through that and then trying something, sometimes I have to just try a song that is absurdly opposite of what I'm feeling and allow it to feel absurd until it starts to find its way. Then I realize, okay, I can do that. But, I completely hear you when it comes to these just don't feel right.

They don't feel right because you just, stick with this because there's a skill and an art and a passion and, something that's really great about that. And other times it's just, maybe you gotta try something else. and it's gonna take a minute to feel authentic.

Tia Hoffer: Right. And I think sometimes you don't realize, Oh, I never thought I would be able to do that genre. Right. That it didn't seem like that. I mean, like the EDM stuff was a lot of fun and, collaborating with Paul, but I didn't, I didn't know I could do that, right? So it is, it sort of grows your production chops. To be a good producer you have to be able to do different genres. That's my goal to keep focusing on that and learning, and not just keep doing the same things but challenge myself. Maybe it won't work, maybe it's not gonna be genuine. Um, but at least I probably learned every time you do a song, you're learning different skills that will be used, you know, that's never a waste of time. You learn something that you can apply to different songs and whether it's mixing or whatever it is.

Becky Boyland: Absolutely. And it comes back to the sounds that you're talking about and being able to select sounds and how they do work in those genres. And then sometimes you also can break the rules because I know the more that I've worked with electronic music, which I love doing as just a little fun side hobby, and some of those sounds will make their way back into acoustic music. And it just feels good. And of course, sub basses will definitely make their way back into my acoustic music.

Tia Hoffer: Those are applicable in a lot of different genres, And I think that sort of makes it more unique, right? That it's not just one genre that you might kind of bring in those elements would probably make you sound, like, oh, this is new. This sounds really innovative, right?

Instead the same old, same old stuff that, that people have heard. and it seemed like you can do it to a point. but you're, there's, you know, it's like, oh wait, I'm confused. what kind of genre is this? You don't wanna go too far. But it's just something little elements that come in that make it kind of interesting.

So yeah, that's a good point. So now I'm exploring a punkish type of album, so that's gonna be new. Maybe it's punk pop or something. It's not like true punk. but that is challenging me as well.

Becky Boyland: That sounds fascinating. It's fun to try really different things and break down the rules of what makes that genre a genre. But it's very interesting in this age because genres are not as separated out as they were when we were growing up. And we don't have radio stations that have such dedicated formats.

They may say they have a format, but the music breadth is so much greater than it was that I remember. Sometimes that's good news, bad news, I think. But overall it's really exciting that there are so many different types of things that can intermingle. It does make it very hard to pin it down.

What is this? What is this music? It's great, but what is it?

Tia Hoffer: I know that was a challenge when I first started. They'd say, you should use references like this. My song sounds like this person or that person. even vocally who do you sound like, I don't really know. So that was always a challenge for me to figure that out. But I think that's where, the, you know, courses through, you know, Kris and Gabriel realizing, using, reference songs, not to copy them, but to learn from them of what is "successful," what are the sound selections that we talked about? What is the structure, the math, right? And I know people say it should be authentic music. You shouldn't be writing for sync, but you still have to incorporate some of the needs of sync in terms of placements, right?

So that's a challenge too. Balancing out those needs. Your own emotional, This is what I wanna express and this is how I feel, to Will this be applicable for use? You know, Will people, want to license this? I think that's a challenge too, and it's not either or, but you can't say, Well, I'm gonna forget about what they need and just do what I wanna do. Then you're just you know, you're being an artist, which is great, but if you want it to also be placed, then you have to incorporate those things. So that's why I'm learning that too. Like how do you, marry those things together in a way that feels genuine to what you're composing, producing.

Becky Boyland: Yeah. It's essentially limiting yourself to a specific box of crayons. whether it's elements of the song itself, the themes and all of those backstories it still requires an artist's hand. Obviously, there are other tools out there that folks think can create music, but the reality is the best stuff feels artistically human

To be able to put that emotion heart creativity and unique style, and still keep it within those parameters to say, this could be beneficial to this particular production if they need this piece of music, but at the same time, I didn't just throw this all together and say, I hope it works for you. I didn't really put any energy or effort into it. and sometimes even when you're just working on something that's so far outside of your own particular style, it's almost a new way to entertain yourself and then you can enjoy the final finished product. And I know sometimes when I've created something that's way outside my normal stuff, when I go back to it and listen to it, if I haven't heard it in a while, I'm like, oh, wow, that's actually really cool.

And then what's even more fun is. Half the time, I don't even remember what instrumentation I used. I don't know what synth is on that. I don't know what that strange sound is. It's just really cool. So it feels like somebody else. So it makes me listen to it like a fan or like just an audience member.

And that's just sort of a fun bonus when it's outside of my normal catalog of music.

Tia Hoffer: Yes. That is so true. It's interesting just how we create, right. Using references, and I use voice memo all the time, and just like singing to the phone.

But now I sing in some production things, which I never used to do. Just be like the vocal hook, a lyrical something. And now it's like, oh, here's a drum pattern that I like. can I recreate this? That's been, really fun to realize, that your brain is starting to subconsciously, unconsciously start to filter in through my consciousness, Oh, this is a production ideas or this hits the mood I'm trying to achieve, or something like that, right? To add to things. And it can sometimes be the creation of the start of a song, right? Just that little phrase or something that I'm singing in that's, more of instrumentation more than it is the vocal melody.

Becky Boyland: So it's like your creative ingredients that you're just waiting for the right recipe for, and you have all of these assets in place. it's really, really fun. Although occasionally I have to go back into my voice memos and start cleaning things up.

Tia Hoffer: Otherwise it's like, What are all these things? You're like, oh, that's not gonna be something. Time to delete that one. Yeah, that one... what was I thinking, right?

Becky Boyland: ...Naming them.

Tia Hoffer: Oh yeah, you name them?

Becky Boyland: Categorizing and I found out, probably a couple years ago that you can make sub folders, which was very helpful because I started doing acoustic guitar hooks and I thought I need to put these all together so that I can find them readily. And, 'cause that's the only thing is that my voice memos are, named by either my location or the time as far as the default, which is entirely unhelpful, especially since, since I'm home all the time when I'm making these.

And, it's so fun. It's sort of like with those finished compositions that I haven't heard in a while, going back through those voice memos can be gold.

Yeah, exactly. I didn't know you could do sub folders or categories. That's really a good thing. 'cause I do the same thing. Once I start naming them, then it's much more helpful. But if It's just a little hook or something of, instrumentation, then it's like instrumentation one, two.

Unless you go through all of, so yeah, that's a good idea. Another project.

Yes.

Tia Hoffer: Yeah.

Becky Boyland: It's a nice thing to go back periodically to just you know, every month to go back and start to listen back through and see what you forgot you recorded that is gonna be the start of something big.

Tia Hoffer: Right. I'm in that review, I guess maybe from January I started, reviewing all the songs, that, I produced that didn't get completed. And why? And do they need something? Do I wanna move them forward or not? I put 'em in some other, you know, the graveyard folder. Um, so yeah, I'm trying to make some of those decisions now and take a look at some things, so, and get organized.

Becky Boyland: We'll be back with more after the break. Second Verse is sponsored by Attitude Creativity. Many indie music artists don't have a website that grows their audience and reflects who they are, so they get lost in the noise of streaming. Marketing and brand messaging with Attitude Creativity helps boost your brand and build a site that hits all the right notes.

You wanna be an artist who stands out from the crowd, and to do that, you need your music to be heard. If your website doesn't reflect who you are or make an impact, you feel like a singer who's been handed a pair of drumsticks instead of a mic. You deserve a website and brand messaging you can be proud of, and that doesn't take time away from your music.

As an artist like you, I understand how overwhelming websites and marketing can be, and that's why, putting on my other creative hat, I put my decades of marketing and development experience to work for you. You'll no longer have to apologize for your website. You'll look and feel like a professional with a custom StoryBranded website you can be proud of.

And right now you can get a headstart with my free downloadable EPK blueprint and start building your electronic press kit to promote your music. Head to attitudecreativity.com/blueprint to get your copy. That's Attitude, A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E, creativity.com/blueprint.

And so production music is your primary focus. Are there other musical endeavors that you're working on as well?

Tia Hoffer: Initially, I wanted to do lots of different things, especially in Kris's courses, she presents, different, ideas of how to be successful in the music world. I was excited about all the things and now I'm shifting into a kind of, focusing a little bit more, and realizing some, some of the things took me away from what I really wanna do, even though they were fun.

I think you need to focus a little bit better, especially when life, kind of comes into play.

and that was something that recently I've had medical issues for many years. A couple autoimmune disorders, right? That kind of flare up at times and kind of ups and downs.

And then for months I had a migraine that was just not gonna go away. Realizing I created systems and approaches that worked at certain times, and then realizing I have to reevaluate the things I'm gonna focus on and the systems because I don't have the energy to do everything I was doing before.

Which I think has actually been helpful. It's been a positive thing and a good process to just go through and prioritize and say, okay, what do I really want? What means something to me, especially in this phase of my life, right? Kind of being in that sort of post, I'm still working, but, kind of retirement phase of my life.

What's meaningful to me now, I'm listening to a lot of productivity, you know, tutorials and webinars trying to organize things and focus on that. Production music, I really love doing that, and that's something I have a little bit more control over I have goals and do much better if I have a deadline, a goal, a structure.

This is a project I want to work on and complete. That's much better for me than sort of open-ended. So anyway, so yeah, that, that is my focus right now is the production and then we talked about and just sort of potentially interested in doing something to, I was trying to, how you give back, I'm not an expert in music production.

Right. I'm not gonna be teaching people on music production.

But because of my background as a psychologist, can I provide something to creative people, to musicians that might be a help. that was one area I was trying to figure out. Like what a YouTube tutorial, coaching, something, right.

That, that might be helpful to people in terms of understanding Their blocks, obstacles, things that challenge them to move forward in the creative realm. people talk a lot about perfectionism or procrastination, and there's lots of ideas of how to overcome those things, but for me, the self-awareness and self-understanding on a deeper level is what helps us to get to the next phase where people can say, do A, B, C, D.

And it's like, yeah, if I could do that, that would be quite easy. but sometimes those challenges, really do hold us back, whether it's fear of rejection, fear of judgment, fear of failure or fear of success. those fears, become very prevalent for some people and become, difficult blocks to overcome and let go of.

So I'm thinking about those things. I'm not quite sure yet, but for me, the focus is going to be the music production and continuing to move forward and learn

Becky Boyland: That's so incredibly powerful because going back to being able to focus on the thing that you know is going to be the best approach for you, best process, it's very easy for the shiny object syndrome to be the another factor for a lot of musicians, because there are a lot of things we can do, should we do them all and we can't do them all.

No one can do them all the time. You may be able to do them sequentially, but that's gonna take a long, long, long, long time.

Tia Hoffer: multitasking, right? your brain doesn't multitask, you just, shift.

Becky Boyland: Yes.

Tia Hoffer: It feels like you're multitasking but you're still doing one thing or another.

Becky Boyland: Yeah. I think the guilt around the concept that we were told for so long that was a virtue and that that was a valuable thing. And it wasn't until I realized that I'm terrible at context switching and recovering from that. It's very freeing to realize that's not good for anybody to do that.

But it also, you know, I, I realized just the emotional effects and trying to get into another project and switch gears when I would get interrupted with things that weren't consequential. There just wasn't value to that. It would surprise me how much that would irritate me until I realized I was on a roll and got interrupted

And so I was in a flow state, and it wasn't even necessarily a creative situation, but just being able to be very focused in doing what I needed to do It wasn't the interruption that was the problem. It was coming all the way back around and figuring out where I was and what I was doing to get back into that level of productivity. For a lot of, a lot of artists, a lot of musicians, a lot of producers, some of those challenges of, that you were talking about are so important. I think that will be a tremendously beneficial thing. And I know you're still working out the details of what that's gonna look like, but, yes.

I probably have a lot of ideas. Well, part of it for me, and I think just the biggest thing was over the last three or four years, really starting to understand myself better and understand, how my brain works.

I recently was diagnosed with ADHD, and, growing up as a girl in the eighties, I was never going to get diagnosed. So I was just a precocious kid and, very particular about how I wanted things to be and then of course, context switching was going to be a problem for me.

And I anecdotally have known a number of artists who would also say that they have ADHD. And so I think that acknowledgement that many types of neurodivergence are going to coexist with creativity and there are great benefits to that. And then there are great challenges to that just because of how our world is wired compared to how our brains are wired.

Having psychological support is so important and beneficial. I can just imagine tremendous things coming from that kind of support.

Tia Hoffer: Yeah. It's interesting that you said, if you don't fit the mold of how people process things or work in certain ways, then it affects the self-esteem, right? And your sense of self-efficacy, What's wrong with me that I can't do it the way they do it? And that is that vicious cycle, right? You're kind of beating yourself up because why don't I think this way or work this way? Instead of being able to, really value it and embrace it. It's interesting. I'm decluttering my house. This is a big project for me. I'm taking all these tutorials. And so one of 'em, she talks about your style of, and I always thought, I'm just a slob. I'm just disorganized. Then she said that she calls them butterflies, that if you're a macro organizer and a visual organizer, and that's, that's me, right? If I don't see, it doesn't exist. So now I realize, oh, you have to have things out, but you have to have them out in an organized way. Instead of me trying to fit into the mold of how most organization is, I'm like, no, no, I have to make it so it fits for how I am, who I'm, and how I think and those things. And so I agree with you, like if you have those, specific neurodivergent behaviors, you have to work within what you have and who you are instead. But I think the impact on that because of society's expectation of you have to be like everybody else or something's wrong with you, can be very detrimental and longstanding. It's not easy to kind of say, Nope, that's it. I'm not gonna listen to what people say. It's something you sometimes have to overcome and work through, you know, therapy or whatever it is. But it is important you can embrace, this is how I work and I'm gonna figure out methods that fit within, my approach to things and be successful in any way that you want to be.

Becky Boyland: Exactly, because I think there's just so much shame associated with, This is the way you keep a house, this is the way you do your homework, or this is the way that certain things have to be. Thankfully, there seems to be a bit more societal permission to do it differently now, but it's sort of like living in that halfway point between a major shift.

And it's sort of like everybody got married when they were 20, you know, 50 years ago, and now, people are single into their 60s. There's such a range, but there's still that perspective that this is the way it's done, even though this is largely not the way it happens anymore.

So we still hold onto these old viewpoints that are out of sync and it's just very confusing.

Tia Hoffer: I agree with you. I think the challenge is not internalizing those messages. You're not good enough, something's wrong with you. The themes that people often carry with us, whether it's a family member or society or whoever it is, has sort of, communicated to us when we young and more, open to absorbing those things and then how do you pull them back out and let go of them?.

Becky Boyland: And then of course, as, business people, basically as artists who are, you know, making new careers, we have to figure out how do we get known? How do we get this information out in front of people?

The biggest challenge is websites and social media.

How is that going for you?

Tia Hoffer: Yeah, so that is my challenge in terms of branding this year that is on my to-do list, learning, how to utilize that more effectively. I'm sort of in the process of sort of revamping, um, website, to see if I can make it more streamlined, more focused and clearer in terms of what my message and goals are.

That's something I'm, I've been. You know, trying different things and, and, that's a challenge. I think the music business piece of it is very much a challenge for me. It's not a world in business at all, like psychology, FBI, none of it was business related, so I didn't really learn those tools.

Social media has always been difficult, especially as, both a psychologist and an agent. Both professions are very private, you know, it's like you don't wanna be, putting things out that, would be, misinterpreted or detrimental, to either populations you're working with or the work you do. You know, With the FBI definitely things were very, very private, so I didn't have any social media. So I have Facebook, Instagram, I've never posted anything. I haven't been doing it and I would like to, put, more than a toe in and maybe progress in that area a little bit more, but I don't know what that means.

So I know there's some posts, you know, two or three times a week and that's never gonna happen. I know that's not gonna be my focus. but how can you kind of be in the middle and have it be effective? is one of the questions that I am trying to explore.

Becky Boyland: Right. And a lot of the challenges are that everyone has a recommendation and it's a lot of messages out there, a lot of confusion, and particularly for artists where they have to have various profiles and streaming platforms and all these different things often are told, well, don't worry about it as long as you have social media or as long as you have a Linktree, people can find that one thing, but there's no way to control your own story. That's a big challenge for those who have so many links and really need a centralized location that they control. especially for producers and musicians in this type of space of production music, the audience you're trying to reach is a little different.

And at the same time, you still have that opportunity to reach just that general consumer as well because you can still bring them into the fold, you know, and share about your story, but also meet them at their story because they're coming to you because there's something that they're connecting with about you and about your music. so ultimately that website is home base.

Tia Hoffer: Yeah.

Becky Boyland: That website is where you can control that story. And if any of the social media platforms goes away tomorrow, you are still able to, you know, attract, draw, and connect with your, your audience, whether it is also the consumer or producers and someone who's working on a, a film or TV show and wants to find where they can license your music.

And at the same time, because you are pursuing that path, your social media is gonna look a little different because it's still that great opportunity to make that personal connection and then draw folks back. But the biggest thing is a consistency of some sort. We have patterns. And when your audience starts to recognize your pattern that okay, She's gonna show up and she's gonna be consistent and it's gonna be once a week.

It doesn't have to be 12 times a day or,whatever the crazy numbers are now. No, but it can be really daunting and overwhelming because there are no rules and then like tons of rules. Ultimately people want to know that they can trust that you're going to show up on some kind of pattern that they start to recognize and that what you offer has that value that keeps them coming back. And then they wanna know more. They wanna connect. They want to be part of your orbit and keep up with what you're doing. And that's where that can continue to grow because you are guiding them through whatever it is that they're looking for in life whether it's entertainment or encouragement with that psychological impact and cathartic experience they get from your music.

And, so it's really just a progressive development of relationship in a number of different ways. When they see that she's consistent and I know that I can show up to her website and get all the information that I need there, that's going to produce fruit over time.

Tia Hoffer: Yeah, I like the way you said that about just some consistency, you know, whatever that consistency is, you said it, and then you just keep, doing that, which seems much more manageable, than something like you said, some people were saying, you know, how many times and it's just like, well, that would be your full-time job. When do you have time to, create things? It seems a little, overwhelming. I'm part of LinkedIn, as a psychologist, right? You can only have one profile. So I thought about, well, maybe I should shift it over and just do the music. That's kind of what I want to do. and I don't know what that would mean in terms of confusing people or not, but like you said, if you can combine or integrate those things, and that's where I think would be the value or the power of how do you integrate those things.

And like we talked about, you know, presenting your story. That people, people that might make them interested in some way, but unless you're giving them something else, you know, that they can use that, seems more applicable to their life, then that's not sufficient. You have to give more.

so yes, that's why I'm trying to figure out how do you integrate all those things, together to be a more powerful brand. and then also, especially if you're doing music production and not really artist work, some people still want the where do I find you on Spotify and how do I listen to your music?

And that is another area, in terms of the, marketing that is important too.

Becky Boyland: Yeah. And the challenge of course with that is the licensing issues that you can run into. But when you do have an opportunity to have some of that information in a streaming platform, it's really great. But that's where at least you can say, you know what? Go to my website because this is the type of music that I create for these purposes.

But here's what you can do on LinkedIn. This is bonus tip. Because you have a brand name, you can create a page. So if you create a business page, then you have some place to send people that will still have you as the principle figure of that company. But it will allow you then to be a little bit broader in your personal profile where you can say, I am this, but I'm also this.

But it also will be like, and I work here, you know? And even though you own it, there's still can be that little bit of differentiation. It gives you one more hyperlink, really, in addition to having some of that information and a basic summary show up. That way you don't have to completely abandon everything. You have different opportunities to point people to more information, and then of course always sending them back to home base: to the website.

Tia Hoffer: Yes, exactly. The website. That's a great suggestion in terms of, that, so I've been trying to just create some content of what what I want to do if I was making, and luckily I,because I don't post a lot or anything, on LinkedIn, there's hardly anything in there, right. So it's not like, oh, I have to change everything over. I can actually just, start adding things, that I haven't at this point done. So, so yeah. Great suggestion.

Becky Boyland: And it'll be a great place to go ahead and keep sharing about That vision that you have for helping artists. I think that's gonna be so exciting. I can't wait to hear more and follow your journey as you continue down that path, because that absolutely resonates for me.

And I think that's going to be a very powerful thing.

Tia Hoffer: Oh, thanks so much. Well, that's, you know, really that's helpful to hear that and then it puts me into a little accountability, doesn’t it?

Becky Boyland: There you go there. Absolutely.

So, for those who are finding themselves, you know, maybe retiring from a career and have always wanted to be an artist or be a musician or a producer, what's your advice for them?

Tia Hoffer: Yeah. So I think, usually people at the end of our lives, don't regret things we've done. We regret the things we haven't done, which I think is so true. Like, I don't really think of any regrets I have in my life. At the time those were the decisions I made or direction I went. and I learned a lot. So no regrets. But I think that is the things I didn't do. Like why didn't I start this earlier? Why didn't I just start, like, what was I waiting for? What was I thinking? So I think I would be like, start now. Right? Start right away if there's any interest that you have in doing it, jump in, know that it's not gonna be perfect,

But not starting is what you'll regret if you don't. So, that's I think one piece and the other is that sort of, the baby steps, that feeling of, if I'm not great when I start, I may as well not start. You will not be great, right?

You're gonna produce lots of bad stuff for a while and then you get slowly better and better. and better.And I'm still learning so much and I know I have a long way to go, but just knowing, I have to build on one skill.

I just have to learn some new thing. In the declutter world, they say five minutes matter, right? And it really does. You don't have to spend the entire weekend and, you know, 24/7 on some project. You just have to turn it on, turn on the computer, you know, open up, whatever DAW you use and just start.

And then it, it just sort of builds. And usually after, you know, then you keep going, right? You're not gonna stop at that point. You really are enjoying what you're doing. And I think, you know, the final thing that I would say in terms of advice for getting started is I think it really does help to take some course. You can do it on your own, you can read a book, you can do all those things. But I think what does help is, having a place like the, group you're a part of, if they have a Facebook group, that you can ask those questions right away and, and get feedback, that you have accountability, that you show up if there's, you know, live meetings or things like that, that you're learning from each other, which is really powerful.

So I think that helps to keep you going because it's so easy, I think to start and then be discouraged like, why doesn't the software package work? I can't get this to open. So I think what's helpful is realizing other people are learning too, and everyone is helping each other.

As well as the instructor being there for you. So I think that's powerful. The whole tribe concept. Community concept, right? Our sense of belonging is really important. And I think then it, you feel like, oh, what I'm doing is valuable. Other people are doing it too. It's not just me, you know, everybody knows everything and I don't know anything,

Oh no, we're all in the same boat. We're all trying to figure it out. And people are really helpful. you ask a question and people post all kinds of, you know, try this, try that. And that's, really helpful. I know when I first started, that was, invaluable to try and keep going because sometimes it's very frustrating when the computer doesn't do what you want it to do or, you're struggling to learn some, you know, what you at the time think, this is really basic.

Why don't I know how to do this? and so getting those answers quickly is really important to not lose the momentum moving forward um, and so you don't quit.

Becky Boyland: Right, recognizing that you're not alone. And then also that there are so many great mentors who are going to shave so much time off of what you have to learn. They've done all the heavy lifting, they've done all the hard work and are so generously helping you to get ahead a whole lot faster. Is just something that's so invaluable and so important to appreciate and recognize when there's someone in your path that can help.

Tia Hoffer: You can Google things, but it's just not the same. You're reading, reading, reading. It's not the same circumstance. The other thing is just not as much fun. Even introverts, having that kind of team or group that are, supporting each other, is much more fun. And meeting different people, I met you through those courses. I think that's really invaluable too.

Becky Boyland: And I'm an introvert too.

Tia Hoffer: Yay, introverts unite. So yeah, one of the best books I ever read was called Quiet. I dunno if you've ever heard of that book. Anyways, just Quiet. And it's like, you know how to mediate a world that can't stop talking, right? We're a world of extroverts with social media and everything.

You know, people are comfortable, some people are really comfortable being on camera, being online, and as introverts, that's usually not something we're as comfortable with. She wrote that book and it was really an epiphany for me, like, wow, if I knew about all these things, you know, I would've made some different choices. Doesn't mean there were better choices, but maybe different choices in terms of that. Because I realized, you know, what do you need to do? Like, you can be in a kind of extroverted situation, presentations, performing, whatever you wanna do. You have to know, okay, that's gonna take energy for me to put that out more than somebody who's an extrovert and is really comfortable doing it.

Matter of fact, I worked with a classic extrovert and he would go from room to room, office to office telling the same story. He would get more and more animated. And he got more energized by doing that. Whereas for me, I'm like, oh, I would've been exhausted doing that. But for him, that was how he gained his energy, right?

So as an introvert, you can do all those things, but you have to fit in the time. That will be the downtime, the time to say, I need to just close up and be in my own little bubble and need to read a little book. I need to, whatever I need to do on my own, then my energy will get back up again.

I just can't keep putting that out and not finding the ways to gain energy back, which is for an introvert, is more maybe quiet and solitude thing.

Becky Boyland: I was once accused of being an extrovert by someone I'd worked with for four years. And I had never felt so unseen because I thought, how do you not know this about me? And granted, I can do those things and I think it's because he had seen me animated about something I was interested in.

And that is definitely where the misconception comes. But yeah, after putting out all that energy and having to do that for an extensive amount of time, it's like, I need to go take a nap. You just have to let me be. So it's not about how someone presents and I think it's why there are a lot of introverts who actually do like to be on stage and it's because it's their passion and it's also their bubble and they can do this thing and then walk away.

Tia Hoffer: Yeah.

Becky Boyland: And so it's not unusual.

Tia Hoffer: I know I was accused of being an extrovert once too, because I was doing presentations. It's like, well, you must be an extrovert. You're out there presenting. It's like, no, that's not the same thing.

It does apply, to a lot of artists because there is that assumption that if I'm gonna put my music out there, then I must be so extroverted I think that panic that comes with it is the natural thing of, recognizing that I don't have that kind of energy.

Becky Boyland: But there are lots of ways, which I think brings this full circle. There are lots of ways to make a living in music and it doesn't have to look the same because there are just so many needs. Because music is so core to our society, and not just for our entertainment, but for our emotional betterments.

And, just the fact that beauty and aesthetics are crucial to a healthy life. So there's lots of ways to do it.

Tia Hoffer: That's true.

Music is so vital in everything that we do. you probably know Michael Elsner, but he would say, you know, you don't watch TV, you listen to TV. And Istarted doing that when I first started producing and it was really fascinating to just listen to how is the music used.

You feel the music right away, when you're listening and watching, television, movies. seeing how it's applied, it's been fascinating to see, like, oh, that's the emotional field. Oh look, there's no music. They literally dropped off the music and how that's powerful in a different way.

And so, just, seeing the application of music in all these different areas can you imagine a world without music? if you watch the show without music, it's very strange, right? It just lacks, so much of the depth. they talk about that with, folks who have, brain disorders that they can sing a song or play something, but then they can't actually talk to somebody,

It's tapping into parts of our brain that is, so different, so visceral and, so important.

Becky Boyland: Yeah,

Tia Hoffer: interesting.

Becky Boyland: ho

w can people find you online?

Tia Hoffer: Zeninu Music is my website, the Instagram as well, Facebook is, Tia Alane. So yeah, that's the name I started using, Tia Alane, but now I just use my name. Zeninu Music, which is Zen, Inu is Japanese for dog and so it's Zen dog. I had somebody of the tattoo artist create a picture of a dog playing an ukulele. I dunno if it fits the brand now or not, but but yeah, that's the brand image, so that's what they can find me.

Becky Boyland: And I will make sure that all of that's in the show notes so that they can keep up with what you're working on. this has been absolutely delightful.

Tia Hoffer: Oh, thank you Becky. I love talking with you about all these things and it's made me really think about, where does music fit in and how do we approach these things and the sort of meaningfulness of it. I appreciate the topic. I think it's gonna be a great podcast and a lot of people are gonna resonate with the theme, so appreciate you doing the podcast for us.

Becky Boyland: Thank you so much. It's been so great to talk to you.

Tia Hoffer: You too.

Becky Boyland: There's so much to take away from Tia's story. From the outside, it might seem like she jumped from one extreme to another, but the truth is her journey was a steady unfolding of skills, healing, and courage. I love how Tia shared so openly about her creative process, her fascinating career, and the mindset shifts that allowed her to finally dive into music production.

One thing that stood out is that reminder that not starting is the real regret. As artists, we often get stuck in thinking we have to be great before we begin, but building skill, just like building a career, is a process and we can take it step by step.

Tia didn't wait for the perfect moment to start composing. She didn't need another formal degree, a professional studio, or even complete confidence. She just took action.

Your action step this week: ask yourself, what if you started now with what you have? Don't wait until you, you know, feel ready. Choose one small thing to move your dream forward. Write that chorus. Explore that software. Submit that pitch. Whether it's developing your skills, nurturing a writing habit, or devoting a quiet hour to explore your own Second Verse, permission isn't required. If it is, well, I'm giving you permission now.

If clarity is part of your hurdle, especially around your artist brand or creative presence, visit attitudecreativity.com. That's where I help indie artists build their message and website so their next step feels more transparent.

If this episode encouraged you, please subscribe to Second Verse. Leave a review and share it with a friend. Your support helps independent voices like Tia's reach the people who need them, and you never know who might need a little nudge toward their own Second Verse. And now, enjoy "Shame" by Kai Z, written by Tia Hoffer and Paul Harris.