Building Momentum: The Art of Saying Yes with Music Mentor Greig Watts

Teaser Clip

Greig Watts: So I put my head down, trained as a financial advisor, did pretty well for a year or two at that, and then Greig, you need to follow your dream now.

Let's give it a year. So I left the bank and they were like, why are we letting you go? We don't want you to go. I left for a year and started to build up connections and work on songwriting two or three times a week.

Then I met Paul Drew, one of my partners at DWB, we started to work together and about on the 12th month, it's a year. I haven't earned any money. Do I go back to work? We kind of said, look, we feel really close. Let's give it three more months. Just that little step of faith that it would happen. And it did. We set up on our own company and I've never been back to the bank.

Introduction

Becky Boyland: Welcome to Second Verse, the podcast that celebrates indie artists and creatives finding their way back to music—and the courage it takes to follow that calling. I’m your host, Becky Boyland—singer-songwriter, StoryBrand-certified brand messaging expert, and the founder of Attitude Creativity, where I help artists build brands and websites that support their second act.

Today’s guest is one of those people who sees the potential in others long before they see it in themselves.

Greig Watts is a music publisher, songwriting mentor, and co-founder of DWB Music—a global network of songwriters and producers working in everything from artist development and K-pop to Eurovision, sync licensing, and beyond.

Greig has a fascinating story of stepping away from music to work in a bank, then giving himself one year to chase his dream. That decision led to a full career in music publishing, traveling the world, and—more than anything—mentoring hundreds of songwriters through their own journey of fulfilling their music dreams

In this conversation, we talk about songwriting, mindset, mentorship, and what can happen when you simply say yes to your dream. So let's get into Greig's Second Verse.

Welcome and Early Influences

Becky Boyland: Welcome, Greig. I'm so glad to have you on the podcast today.

Greig Watts: Hi. Nice to see you.

Becky Boyland: You have quite the history of music and have been doing this for, many years and some really interesting angles that we can talk about. But I often start with where did music, become this passion for you?

Greig Watts: Gosh. I think it started at a very early age. one of the things I've been asked this question a lot is where does it start? I think it was just in my house. My parents had a record player. I was always playing their records. They ran a youth group, so there was music, I wasn't old enough to go to the youth group, but there was young girls and guys playing their music at the youth group. Teenagers. My cousin, I remember he used to come and visit me, every couple of weeks. He was bringing in his Madness records and so it was that influence of having music everywhere around me, first, got me into it myself, and just, I think from then on my whole life could be a soundtrack, if you name a song, I could tell you where I was, that sort of thing.

So I think it's just been instilled in me very early age.

Teenage Years and Musical Growth

Greig Watts: I then probably had a few periods in life where, remember having glandular fever when I was 15, something like that. And remember sleeping a lot and I'd come home from school after I'd had the worst of it. I'd lay down listen to a CD.

And fall asleep. And the next day I'd wake up and I hadn't done my homework, but this album had gone inside and I still listen to some albums and think that's the time when I kind of had, I had no, I did have friends, but I didn't have much of a social life for about a year. So the songs and the albums became my friends as well.

So I think there's quite a deep connection with music from this early start and from teenage years, and then I just wanted to make it myself as well.

Becky Boyland: And I think that really shows how music did its job, because it is amazing how much it gets tied into the different periods of our lives. And I know that for me, if I wanna really go back in time, I'll just go listen to a whole bunch of '80s music and I can't help myself. I'll just listen to it on repeat. But that's so amazing how that connected you and then started you on writing. I don't think I really realized that writing was a thing I could do until I was a bit older, so that's really amazing as a teen, that that's something you would gravitate to.

Greig Watts: Yeah, I think sort of early '80s is my thing as well. And I think the keyboards, electronic music was coming into fashion. I remember, hearing "Axel F," Harold Faltermeyer, Beverly Hills Cop and Howard Jones. My parents had a keyboard, so I remember trying to copy the keyboard riffs, which I, I'd teach myself.

And then if I remember playing them at school, you know, during the school music teaching. It's quite interesting. I've still got a report which says Greig just plods along but isn't very interested, which was totally untrue, I was very happy at playing these keyboards. and, and my friends going, oh, Greig can play the keyboards.

Something inside me was always like, but I don't wanna learn music too much. I wanna write. I did learn to a point, but I never learned it theoretically and I never learned it deeply. Like some people were having lessons 'cause I automatically switched into, I wanna write.

So that's the creative part of me which was there anyway, made me start writing my own keyboard riffs and things like that.

Becky Boyland: It sounded like you already had the, had the ear for it to be able to pick out these melodies.

Greig Watts: so I know that one thing I did, I didn't know at the time, but now you look back and think, well, other people weren't copying melodies. that was one of the gifts. I actually think the biggest gift I've got for music is hearing it. So you hear other people's music, and I now work as a publisher and an A&R and I can develop songs.

So it's hearing other people's ideas and making them into better ideas in some sense. I think that's what I did with writing really. I was nicking a bit from this song and a bit from that song, putting it together and, making a new song. Just didn't sound like the original one that I'd nicked, you know?

So I think that's all, that's we all recreating the wheel a bit in a sense by being inspired.

Becky Boyland: And that's so incredible because even as an artist, and especially when we first start writing and have some of these little ideas or a kernel of an idea, we don't necessarily have the ear or the skill to recognize what it can be. I remember working with a mentor of mine and I shared a song with her.

I actually wrote it on guitar, but for some reason played the demo on keys. as she listened to it, she said, oh, that's a rock song. And I totally got it in that moment, but I would never have come up with that. So it was just amazing how she could listen to it and do exactly what you're doing and recognize what it can be.

Greig Watts: Yeah. Yeah. it's just Some people are brilliant players. I've got many people around me of, you know, Pete one, one of my partners. Wow. What a musician he is in a sense, but, uh, I compliment him by having that ear. and being able to sort of say, that's brilliant. Let's just add a bit here I think you need the whole package really.

Becky Boyland: Yeah, I love that.

Balancing Music and Career

Becky Boyland: So you have spent most of your life in music, but you did have a season where that had to kind of be to the side. Talk about that for a bit.

Greig Watts: I was always writing music in my teenage years. I was always in bands and it was always a band that, to sell the songs. Like I said, I wasn't a great player or anything. We didn't play live, but we were trying to showcase the songs all the time. That was going okay.

When I met my first wife, we ended up, you know, you have a serious relationship. I ended up having to think, I need to, we want to have flat, we want to work. so I went part-time in a bank, for a few years. And I was always the maternity leave cashier. covering for a lady on maternity leave.

I remember doing that in one bank for, nine months-ish. And by the time I got to the end, it went on a bit longer. And they let me go. I remember going into the bank in the next town just 'cause I happened to bank in the same bank I used to work in. And one of the ladies come out and said, oh, are you not working?

We have someone on maternity leave. So it's like this joke that Greig went around on maternity leave at certain bank, it was suggested that I was doing the jobs which I clearly wasn't. It was almost like so few different banks, as a maternity cashier. Eventually you realize that you haven't got as much rights as everyone else, and you've not got a pension and you have not got this. So I think, even though I wanted to leave, I got a permanent role. And then I was still part-time. eventually money tree, you need, you know, you want a more... buy a house. So I went, full-time, so I was still writing on the side, but I remember the sort of the worse situation was I was working in the bank full time and I was writing once every two weeks. On a Sunday, I'd go from where I live, Red Hill, up to Ealing on the train. It'd take me two and a half hours to get there. I'd work for three hours and then it'd take me two and a half hours to get back.

Absolutely shattered. And then two weeks later I'd go back and my friend, co-writer had moved the song on differently to where I, you know, and it was like, oh, I really feel uninvolved in it. So that was quite frustrating. We were writing good songs, but it really felt like I wasn't doing it much at all.

Transition to Full-Time Music

Greig Watts: And I then probably six or seven years into it said, okay, I'll do this as a career. Music, I still love it, but maybe it's not gonna happen. So I put my head down, trained as a financial advisor, did pretty well for a year or two at that, and then left. Became quite good at it, but basically I knew I needed to leave and was waiting for my wife to say, Greig, it's your turn to leave. 'Cause I put her through university. I went to work while she was doing university. Eventually after about two months of both of us having a salary, she was like, Greig, you need to follow your dream now.

Let's give it a year. So I left the bank and I just got sort of like the best, become the best salesman at the bank. And they were like, why are we letting you go? We don't want you to go. We'll offer you all sorts of bonuses, which I knew wasn't true, really, 'cause you only get the bonus if you hit absolutely every target.

So I gave them nine weeks notice 'cause I'd been there for nine years, then improved my sales during those nine weeks. Was even better, 'cause I knew I was leaving. It was exciting. I left for a year and started to build up connections and work on songwriting two or three times a week.

I was traveling around. and then I met, Paul Drew, one of my partners at DWB, we started to work together and about on the 11th month, 12th month, my wife and I, ex-wife now, and I said, you know, it's a year. I haven't earned any money. Do I go back to work? We kind of said, look, we feel really close. Let's give it three more months. And on month 13, the company, the record company I was working through with Paul said, we're gonna set up a publishing department. We are really impressed with you and how you go off and sell the songs as well as write the songs. Do you want to be the person who sets the publishing department up and we'll pay you?

So it was like, wow, just at the edge of the 12 months, just into the new, you know, just that little bit step of faith that it would happen. And it did. so then from then on I worked for them for two years and then we set up on our own company and I've never been back to the bank. I do have nightmares.

Do have nightmares. So, so, yeah.

Becky Boyland: I can imagine. Just, waking up thinking, oh, I have to do this thing, and then remembering, I don't do that anymore. It's so wonderful that you took that time and you took that step and had that margin to do that, even if it did take just that little bit longer. But it's such a really cool story of how it did pay off. Even if it was just that slight extra time.

We'll be back with more after this break.

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Sponsor: Singing / Straw

Becky Boyland:  Second Verse is brought to you by Singing / Straw.

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Founding DWB

Becky Boyland: So now this is what you've been doing for all of these years or has this shifted and transitioned at different times?

They were really great producers and songwriters, and I was agood songwriter. Together we would write the song I'd go out and get leads. They'd finish the productions. I'd come in help finish the mix, tweak a few bits, and then go out and sell the songs. It kind of worked perfectly in that sense. But slowly I became more of the publisher and started to run songwriting camps and do, more development of writers.

Mentorship and Development

Greig Watts: And I think more really the last seven or eight years I've started to realize that my real skill set is developing other people. During Covid, I became a football coach very shortly afterwards.

And the publishing suddenly became mentorship as well. I did a, I think one of those strength finders tests, and I knew what would come out would be good communicator, good, connector but by far the biggest thing that came out was developer. And then I kind of realized, oh, I know who I am now.

I'm here as a publisher to develop other people, and as a mentor, and actually my biggest thrill in life now is I have written songs. I have hits. I have had number one world records, especially with the Japanese market, which sells hundreds of thousands of copies in one week and then disappears the next.

But actually my biggest thrill is developing someone else, especially people who are not seen as, definite, you know, I dunno what the word is, core brigade something. You know, songwriters that look like, especially people like the underdog. I love to help make them successful. Because that's exciting to me.

So that's where it's kind of come to now. I still, I wrote, probably wrote one song last year, but mainly I did develop other writers who probably wrote hundreds and hundreds of songs. so yeah, it's developed a long way in the process.

Becky Boyland: And that's so, so powerful because this is such a unique time in the music industry where now, and I think a lot of it is because of Covid, that there are so many people who now have opportunities to interact with. Professionals like you who can actually move them forward and help them learn the things that they could never figure out on their own or that would take them so long. And because so many people are coming to music for the first time after another career, they don't have that time. They, they don't have decades to invest because they'll never get where they wanna go. So I love that. I don't know how many indie artists recognize, 1, how important mentorship is, and, 2, how available it is. That's what's so great about being able to talk to you and learn more about DWB and what these opportunities are for artists that are out there.

Greig Watts: I think the more I've done it, the more I see how powerful it is the biggest thing about mentorship is having someone you're accountable to. So I've, I've got, I've got, I've got a course that's got content and it's got this and it's got that. And, but the truth is, if you're accountable to someone, you do it.

Actually, if you paid to do a course and then you're accountable to someone, you do it 'cause you paid for it. My sister. she was going to the gym, like we all do we go to the gym and we cancel our membership after about three months and don't turn up. She didn't need to lose weight or anything, she just wanted to get fit.

But the best she got her fitness was the day that her fitness coach moved in next door. So every time she didn't want to go. He went round and knocked on the door and said, hello. 'Cause she had to be accountable to someone. I found that in the last, I've been doing the mentorship for two and a half years and seeing the accountability part being not just accountable to me as well, having a group, a community where people become accountable to each other and actually drive each other on through success and failure and support and hardship and, you know, all sorts of things happening, once you have a support network, you can actually then achieve loads of things.

So for me there's lots of exciting stuff out there. And I'm just excited to be a part of it. And as I say, and help people. I think my wanting to help others comes from my um, brother had something called Asperger's, which is kind of autism.

He was older than me and struggled at school. In those days, you didn't know what it was. But he'd hang around with me and I think I'd sort of become his advocate by accident. It just felt like a natural thing that I would help him chat sometimes and help him be sociable and then that's transferred into my life where I've then carried on.

People come to me and they're really talented, but they haven't got a clue how to present themselves, or put the music together to make it a song they can sell. I'd love to help them make it because, and as it comes down to as well, I have to monetize what I do to survive, keep doing it.

So if I help other songwriters monetize what they do and keep doing it, for me, that feels like a really valuable thing, otherwise it's that thing of back to the bank and being frustrated and not much writing going on. And if I can help other people, not necessarily break out completely of their jobs, but have more of the creativity, then I think that's really full circle of where I came from as well.

Becky Boyland: Absolutely. It's so important to be able to have that margin because we can't consistently make good art if we're spending all of our creative hours doing other things. That really is such an important thing and really a service for people to hear, for the audience to be able to hear what wouldn't have been created otherwise. I love that.

Greig Watts: Yeah. Yeah. I've often just thought, part of what you are creating now is just helping you fund the next thing you can create. So I've often taught people that, you know, they're always looking at can they get a big release with Rihanna. And I'm always like, well, that's great. Let's aim at Rihanna.

And I stood outside Rihanna's house last year 'cause I've had a camp in Barbados and was shone around so I could have knocked on door. I didn't, probably would've got arrested. But, but there's stepping stones to that point where, you know, there's this artist that could buy your song and use it and you can get some royalties and then out of that you can then go to the next song camp that you can get to the next stage.

We can go to the next. So it's all a means to an end. And we may get that big cut.Or there may be lots of other routes to selling songs making royalties and things like that, which people don't seem to know about.

They just seem to aim at these big artists, which is difficult because the big artist has an entourage they work with. So how do we break through that? Actually, sometimes it's find, there's a Rihanna in China. Uh, you know, and that Chinese artist wants songs from the West because it's interesting to get songs from the west, from UK or from America or Sweden.

Becky Boyland: That's one of the reasons why so many artists don't recognize that there are these other opportunities because they're only aiming at that one thing and then they think, well, I can't do that. Then they get disappointed and they keep stepping back and abandoning their dream because their target is very singular, very particular.

And like you said, they have their people. So it's very, very rare. There are either those artists who are doing a ton of their own writing with their team or they have a very specific set of writers that they go to. So it's really a great thing for them to understand there are all these other opportunities.

Diversifying in the Music Industry

Greig Watts: Yeah. And I think for me, there's two choices. I could go and make money in the bank and do a bit of songwriting, or I could do some really good songwriting, but also diversify. This is my favorite. This is what I do most of the time, it's my passion. But also, why don't I dip my foot in, you know, we did some J-pop.

I don't think it's my passion, but we sold lots of records there and we also, that's almost funded the rest of the business, so sometimes it's still songwriting. Just for a different market so I think it's just utilizing you know, being a business person in the music business. That's what it's called, the music business. I love the creative part. Business part is. tougher, but actually I also love the entrepreneur part where, we help dreams happen and we helpmove people into things they can monetize

It's exciting for me, that part. So.

Becky Boyland: That's such a great example of, essentially, having that side gig be something still in music and writing other types of music so that you can fund the artist projects, the artist songs, the things that you wanna maybe do for, you know, for yourself. And I think the other great side effect is how much you can learn during that process. You learn a lot about other genres and different production skills or writing skills depending on your target that you probably wouldn't have picked up if you stayed singularly focused on what you think you wanna write.

Greig Watts: I definitely think if you have an open mind to learning when you work with someone else and you're aiming at a different target, you can definitely take that back home, into what you do in a sense. And you know, you don't have to use the whole influence, but you can influence something.

I would've written it slightly differently because now I've worked in a pop market. I think of, it was just making me think of, you know, when I first started the mentorship I had, writers tend to come from the singer songwriter background. and I am always saying, brilliant singer songwriter.

Let's keep doing your artist career. But how do we monetize? Because singer songwriter really means you write songs for yourself. 'cause you can't really sell songs to another singer songwriter. 'Cause guess what? They write their own songs. so one of the places I show people is have a look at Eurovision, so, which is a European mass big competition. Some, singer songwriter country artists find a home in the Eurovision market. Three of them are at Eurovision this May, and they're out to see their song performed in front of 250 million people watching this TV show.

that's big, but they wouldn't have even thought.

Becky Boyland: It's massive.

Greig Watts: Singer songwriters who are trying to singer songwrite. And it's not saying that they shouldn't do that 'cause I'm actually pushing them to do their artist career as well. That may be their passion. But this is showcasing them.

Larissa, for instance, who's doing this Eurovision, suddenly her artist projects are much more interesting to people and she's getting invited to more things, 'cause she's written this bigger song. So it all, everything sells the other thing, each part. The more successful you are here, the more light it will shine on your original project, so you can sell more of that and more people can hear that. So sometimes it's good to push a different door.

Becky Boyland: I bet you see so many artists just like their minds blown with this concept that, oh, I never would've thought of that. And I think that that probably just opens up their world a bit that there are so many different ways that you can get out there and still have it be on target, still have it be on track.

You're not selling out, you're not doing something contrary to who you are or what your passion or your art is. they wouldn't have found that just around the corner, wherever it is that they live. But now they have that opportunity even if they're not in any major market, globally.

The Power of Getting Your Song Heard

Greig Watts: Yeah, and I think you don't just sort of stumble on it in a sense, but it is actually. I can see people doing well and they're sort of going to this direction and all it is is sort of saying, can I just move you just there? And then you hit your target. So it's just tiny bit of guidance to move to a slightly different direction.

And the same songs they're writing, with some different brush strokes and things can actually go into a, a place where they actually, oh, and it's not just selling and making money, it's having your song heard. I was in Denmark a couple of weeks ago with one of our artists, sat in the audience, and she's had this dream to be on stage for ages and eight years into this dream, she got to be on the stage in Denmark, a couple of million people watching probably. But at the stage I turned and saw all these people doing this lights, swirling the lights to the song. And that's really the full, you know, it doesn't matter how much money we make, when you see your song or feel your song or hear your song being sung back to you by the audience. I think the biggest powerful moment is like, wow, this is how we intended when we wrote the song, we wanted it to be sung back. Of course you have to get it through these places to get it on that stage. For me, you have to look for that. it's about monetizing, but it's not always about monetizing. Sometimes it's about let's get your song heard. I think as well, when you get your song heard and you see that you're really inspired to keep doing it. In my group, I think you, you attended one of my networking things the other day, we've been doing this for two or three years. Because some of the mentorees are becoming successful, it's easy. I don't have to sell it. I can just go, let's listen to some of the stuff. And in a way it sells itself because people are going, okay, I could do that as well. So instead of me having to persuade, by the way, you're a singer songwriter, you could go into Eurovision, people are sort of saying to me, I wonder if I could do it.

Yes. The answer's yes. If you're a good songwriter, we just shift about what you do a bit and, help you get that song to a marketplace.

Becky Boyland: Yeah, and the proof is right there and it's so amazing too, because you can see that through point of where they came from, what their style is, what their background is, and then literally see the output. And it's just so compelling and also so encouraging because, like you said, it's so much easier to see that whole context and recognize that this is possible, this isn't just some wild dream and, yeah, it's incredibly moving to see some of these performances.

Mentorship and the Journey to Success

Greig Watts: Yeah, I think what I've learned is I'm a dreamer and the more I put myself around other dreamers, the more bigger dreams happen and then things actually start to get fulfilled. I remember that from a very early age. I know there's some people that were mentoring me without telling me they were mentoring me if that makes sense.

I had some people in the music industry. One guy in Russia actually, he used to give me a project every now and then and I'd notice each year this project was bigger than the last project. Eventually he gave me a very big project and we ended up recording it at Abbey Road.

And when I went to Russia we went, took all the artists to Russia, Moscow to perform it. It was at this big Jubilee concert, he was mentoring me all the way along, giving me a bigger, bigger, bigger project. I'd been lucky as well. But the key is I put myself with him.

When he asked me to do things and to go and talk at his, conference, even though I wasn't really a speaker at that point, I kinda went, yes, okay. I put myself around other entrepreneurs and other dreamers and things happened because of that. When I was in the bank, in all honesty, I was never gonna make it because everyone in the bank was focused on working in the bank.

There's no problem. That's their career. That's what they wanna do. I remember this quite clearly. There was a guy who lived in my local town who got a publishing deal with EMI and he come in and asked for a mortgage. The mortgage advisor I used to work with came in and said, Greig, this is something you are never gonna have.

And she slapped it on the table. I thought, how, how not, that's how not he was that and she, she didn't mean it, but it almost made me go. Right. I was with people who weren't dreaming. Their dreams were working in the bank and earning a living.

When you put yourself amongst other dreamers, things start to happen. And songwriters are dreamers 'cause they've fought from an early age of writing songs and having their songs appear on TV or on stage or whatever. Sometimes we need realistic people as well. But I think dreaming is powerful and we should keep on doing it. So.

Becky Boyland: the realistic people are a whole lot easier to find. They're all around us, uh, many, many times.

The Importance of Saying Yes

Becky Boyland: And that is such a powerful thing too, though, because so many times when we start this process of dreaming, we're really just sitting in our home studio or wherever we,write and just thinking, oh, I wish, and that isn't, being active. I love that you recognize looking back that those little steps of saying yes, saying yes, saying yes, built, you as a person and your skills and creativity and then really empowered your mentorship of those you're working with now. that's so powerful because it is taking action while waiting in a way

Greig Watts: Yeah, I remember years and years ago, I had a friend who, I was offered this publishing deal. I had a friend who knew, a guy who worked for Peer publishing and he'd written books about publishing and luckily he was in the same town and he said he'd gimme some free advice and the first thing he said is, do you want to make the deal?

And it was like, 'cause if you want these two different things, if you don't want to, we'll just say no If you want to make the deal, we'll get rid of the bits we don't want, but we'll make the rest of the deal better. So, and I was a, yes, I want to make the deal. And he kind of said, you know, and I kind of got that instinct from, if you want to make things happen, you have to say yes and make the deal better.

The moment you say no, the moment things block and I, and I really have proof. There's a few writers I worked with at the beginning of my career as a publisher who used to say no to nearly every deal because they wanted a bigger deal. And it was like, and those writers now 20 years later asked me, how come I've done well and they're doing something different?

The truth is I said yes. I made deals happen rather than always waiting for the big deal to happen. So maybe we did some bad deals, but we are still here still working on that basis. And I even say in co-writing situations, we do a lot of co-writing, a lot of camps. The moment "no" enters the room, stops the song.

It's a block. The truth is it's yes or that's good, can we just try this? Let's try this. And you have the negotiation going on. The moment it's no, the flow stops and it's like that. That's life. One of the things we always say is, Imperfect action is better than perfect inaction. If you stand still, nothing's gonna happen. If you move, at least you're going in a direction.

Becky Boyland: Yeah, nobody really wants to work with somebody who is going to just shut everything down because it stops that creativity of where this okay thing or not so great thing could eventually get replaced by something that's amazing. But if it all stops before it even gets to that point, then everybody loses. And I think it's a really good way to potentially damage relationships and not be asked back into that room if you're putting a halt to everything.

The Value of Co-Writing and Collaboration

Greig Watts: Yeah, I've definitely written with some really great, top writers and come out going, don't wanna work with them again. 'Cause I just felt like I had no input. Even, halfway through the session I thought, there's no point me saying anything, whatever I say. Often it's not necessarily a bad person it's just an overpowering personality.

But then you think, why co-write? Why not do it on your own? it puts you off. You don't want to go back into that situation again where you felt unheard. 'Cause let's go back to what we are saying. We want to create and we want our music to be heard. It's the same in a co-write situation.

We want our ideas to be heard. being unheard is a creative killer really.

Becky Boyland: Absolutely.

Writing and Releasing a Book

Becky Boyland: I understand you have a book coming out soon.

Greig Watts: I do have a book I've, yes I do. Um, which I need to get on with. I finished the book, so I took a course about a year ago which said, Write a Book in 30 Days. And I followed all the structure and I did all the writing. And one of the things was just dump your ideas, literally write, write, write. which is what I found very powerful actually, because, it's amazing the mind has this thing where I've got memories and I'm writing the memories. And then once the memories are out, this memory I never thought about was unlocked. It happened several times. it was really powerful. 'cause it's like, I'm so glad I got that memory back in a sense. So I think that's the same with songwriting, just write, write, write and put the good bits together, you know, and, and actually write bad songs.

'Cause not saying sit down and write a bad song, but one day you'll write a song and it won't be very good. But actually you've got it out and that good song that was sat behind it is gonna come out next. 'cause you keep the flow going. It's like turning on, you know, the good water's gonna come out of the tap eventually. So, yes, I finished the writing, finished the editing. I now need to get on with the self-release and all that sort of thing. it's called Keeping the Dream Alive. It is about, my journey in songwriting, but really turning that into how I can help songwriters and my methods and exactly what I think you said a while while back where if I can help people not make the mistakes I made so they can get there quicker,that really helps 'em. A lot of it is about the dreams I had and the stories I've experienced and sharing that, 'cause I think a lot of it relates to... songwriters find it interesting to hear, wow, this was, I was in that situation and this is what happened. So I think it's kind of real life in that as well.

Becky Boyland: That sounds amazing. I can't wait to read it, so you'll definitely have to keep me updated.

Greig Watts: And I'm definitely gonna get on with the self-release. So the plan is, I've also been waiting for this back operation, so all the time that I didn't know when that's gonna happen. I've got a date now. It's hard to plan anything around it. I'm now cracking on and hoping I can get it done before that happens. 'Cause then I can move on a bit as well after that period.

Becky Boyland: Yeah. Yeah, I totally understand that.

Greig Watts: Yeah, but I've also gotta move on 'cause I've got a second book. So I'm writing a second book about, winning Eurovision. and I'm on chapter 15 of the stories because I've had, I. It actually 16. I haven't written the 16th one yet, but I haven't won Eurovision yet, so I need to carry on writing it until we actually win.

But in a way, I've gotta get the first book out to then clear the decks to start on the second one.

Becky Boyland: I love that, and knowing that you have these stories of what has been accomplished in all of these little pathways, it's really illustrating exactly what you've been talking about, that each step forward is leading to this big prize. And so that's just so exciting.

Greig Watts: Yeah.

Learning from Failures and Moving Forward

Greig Watts: I think that is life, isn't it? One thing leads to another. I do a lot of, as I've mentioned, football coaching, and a lot of the games we lose really teach us about how to win. We played on Sunday. We were playing the top team in the league. We knew we were gonna lose 'cause we had half of our players out.

So we went in and said, let's learn how to play defensively against this team, saying hopefully we'll be better than the last 10 nil. And actually we came out with a four nil loss, which sounds bad, but actually in the second half we only had 10 players and they defended and lost one goal against the best team in the league, so now we can put them in a game that they can win, they can go up two, one, and it'd be close and we could say, defend how we defended there. 'Cause they were really excellent in that sense. So, and again, a lot of the things I've done when I've failed, when I've lost finals, 'cause Eurovision has lots of national finals and when I've lost, I've often, that's how I've worked out, oh, this is how I've lost. Next year we'll go back and try again, and eventually we do win. You learn a lot more from your failures and through your losses, The key is you get back up and go again. Got a lot of people I wrote songs with over those years before I came into it professionally where they were better than me, they were really great writers, but they gave up after one big failure, whereas I was like, okay, let's go again. It's hard, to get up and go again every time. But, you know, there's a good one coming even when you've been battered down a bit,

Becky Boyland: Yeah. And it's modeled for us so much to not value failure and failure is just not making it yet. And so having that perspective is, you would think it shouldn't be that uncommon. But, it is, and so it's, it's incredibly powerful so that someone can actually achieve what they're looking to do.

And so I, I think that's just such a beautiful perspective and illustration.

Joining the Mentorship Program

Becky Boyland: So what does it look like for someone to, join your mentorship program?

Greig Watts: We run them every three to four months at the moment. We actually do three a year. The summer's a bit of a quiet thing. Um, It doesn't work as well over the 'cause it's a lot about collaboration. So, I basically need to hear some music and have a chat with 'em, see if what they're looking for is what I'm offering.

See, I, you can only mentor people who want to be mentored. And actually, I also think it's not just meant, you know, we need to click as people. If someone who comes on and they're, we don't click it doesn't make sense to try and mentor them. So it's very personal on that basis. The actual course itself is about four months.

It can last. four to six months, let's say. we do teaching, which lasts about three months. The co-writes we do once a month, lasts about four months, and then we have a camp at the end. So really it lasts six months and you do it with about nine or 10 other people in your group.

There's 80 people who've gone through it already, so they're also in the Facebook group. There's other people that come through and I'm trying to build community that you work with eight to nine people that help you work and finish songs, and at the end of it, you've still got those to work with and you've got new ones coming through, and you've got the old ones there.

So you've got this community of, when I give you a lead, we are writing a song for something. You've got a pool of people you can say, well, I really liked working with them and I really liked working with them. And that makes our team. So you can then write songs and provide us with finished songs. Kind of equipping you with the knowledge network community and the confidence to actually be able to write songs daily.

And as a, business is, is the idea. And it's working pretty well. When, when people come through and really put their mind to it, they're actually achieving lots of good things and we're signing them to our publishing. I think we've signed 10 of the people that have been involved in it.

Others have gone on and signed with other publishers. Others have just come in and just did like a course and then stop. I encourage people to carry on networking because why come in and find a network and then disappear from the network? But it does happen. So that's, that's just some people, so.

Becky Boyland: Right. And there's also this great value sometimes in having a group of people that has a common language around how you approach it. And not that you can't learn from others, but I know sometimes if I've gone into a writing situation and I expect that we have a common language and then I find out we don't, it takes a lot more to get the ball rolling and get into the process.

Greig Watts: Yeah.

Becky Boyland: I think there's great value in that.

Greig Watts: Yeah.

Building a Community of Songwriters

Greig Watts: And I think connected to that, the mentorship, so I've run lots of songwriting camps and really the mentorship is based on, my experiences of songwriting camps where we would be in tents for four days and I'd put teams together, but really I saw connections happen at dinner and lunch and breakfast.

And when I saw that connection, it was like, that's a team for tomorrow. After the camp, I'd see on social media, particularly on Facebook, Helene is traveling to Switzerland to write with Johnny, and you're like, oh, they didn't write together. Must have been over dinner. So you've put these relationships together and you've, you've made them, You just facilitated them happening, I guess. So it's the same with the camp, with the course. We do it over a long period and really the first couple of weeks is I just ask people they hate this at the start, but I ask them to make a video every day and put it into a closed Facebook group.

'Cause when they're making a daily video just talking about today I am doing this today, I'm doing that. The first two weeks they're getting to know each other and then they co-write. But straight away they go into the co-writing, like they know that person, they know what to expect. They've built a little bit of relationship, they've shared some stories, and 90 days, 103 days of doing that, they actually become really good friends.

So at the end of the course, when they come on the camp, they know each other well. They've got bonds. And they're dying to see each other. They love coming to see each other. The biggest thing they don't know about is how tall anyone is. we've all been on Zoom, and someone turns up and you think, oh, you are tall, or you're small.

That's the biggest talking point. But the truth is they've already done all the bonding and the writing together, and hopefully that forges these strong relationships and the camp cements them. They then have that real personal time with each other and carry on the friendships, the connections and the writing.

So it's based on a intense writing camp, but we do over a longer period, we have some teaching in it as well. Of course, when you work in this group, you're not gonna like everyone you work with or click with everyone but you work with enough people to find team members that you can work with later on.

I remember writing on my own for a period, and it was a struggle. I could do it. I won a contract to go and work at a big studio and did it on my own. It was hard. But when I was writing with other people, it became easier. I remember as we were just talking about, when I've been on one of these Eurovision National Finals, two things have happened, I've lost, or I've won.

And when I've lost on my own, it's a really horrible experience. And actually when I've won on my own, it's a little bit of a strange experience. It's more exciting, but I want to share it with someone. And I, the opposite of that is I've lost with people around me that are part of a team and I've won with people that are around me as part of a team.

Both of those occasions were so different. Losing with a team was better than winning on my own. Because you were in it together. Winning as a team was really wow because you were, it's like when you go and you see an amazing view and you're on your own and it's like, oh, I would love to.

So that's why we all take photos and put 'em on social.

Becky Boyland: Yeah.

Greig Watts: The truth is whether you win or lose doesn't matter. The journey of what you came on, you know... when I start a songwriting camp and there's three people in the room and they don't know each other, it's almost like they create this song, baby, only they know the journey of the baby.

then it gets pitched goes to an artist, and they carry on this journey together and where that journey ends, Could be at a national final or it could be a release, or it could be... only those songwriters experienced the, how it started, how it came together, how it got there, and that, and at the end, they can experience that. So it's, it is already a nucleus of something that you've, you've put, been put together and you are close. So then that is much more powerful than sitting in your own, winning a competition and going, oh, this is nice. I can't share it with anyone. I've done it for experience, sat in the crowd going, yeah.

Then no one knows I've just won and I've won. It is exciting, but you do want to share it with someone.

Becky Boyland: Oh my gosh, that is so, so true. I love all of that. That is so great.

Final Thoughts and Advice for Indie Artists

Becky Boyland: And for those who are listening and are thinking, oh, I wanna be an indie artist, but I don't know if I should do this. What is your advice to them? And I think that to a great extent, this entire interview really is an answer to that. But let's give him a soundbite.

Greig Watts: You've gotta follow your dreams. I think creativity as, like I said, right at the beginning, creativity got put inside me for some reason, probably from birth, but it was brought out to me from all the songs that I was hearing. From my experience, so again, a lot of the mentorship is people coming back from work. Most people say to me, it never goes away. Creativity is there. It has to come out. So I think if you've got it there and you want to do it, follow that dream. Whether that dream leads you to just, you're just singing the bar, but you're releasing the creativity, that's one thing. That's still powerful.

Or it might lead to bigger things. I think if you don't follow the dream, you will be frustrated in that. 'cause I think creativity, it's telling you it has to come out and as I said, it is just how big the dream goes. And in a sense, maybe that's not the important bit and maybe it's you're enjoying the journey.

Becky Boyland: Absolutely. Absolutely. So howcan people keep up with you and, DWB and keep an eye out for your book?

Greig Watts: We have a networking event, once every four to six weeks, really coming to that. That's really fun. And you'll meet hundreds of songwriters. We've got about 300 people on the list. So we get about 50, 60 each time now. So that's a very important thing to come to. Probably my own Facebook page, just find Greig Watts on Facebook or DWB music on Facebook and Instagram. You can connect to us from there. We talk about what we are doing during those times. You can email me and ask to be put on a mailing list if you want to do that as well. Yeah, just, people get in contact is, is fine and I can sort of let 'em know what we're on, but we're, we're very, you'll see us on social media, we're active and posting about what's happening and what's going on.

We're very open to new people contacting us and seeing if we can help or push you to someone else who may be better suited. But reaching out is one of the things. I do a course I launched in January was called Kickstart and it was Kickstart Your New Year. Basically I send them an audio every day, four or five minutes of me giving some advice or a task or talking about a thought of the day We've invented this new thing called Reach Out Mondays, which is, I tell everyone to go and talk to your contacts or send emails on a Monday.

So I should say that message, there's no harm in reaching out and a lot of people are saying they were rubbish at reaching out, not very good at social media, not very good at texting, just 'cause lots of people aren't, but by me saying Monday, go and reach out, they've opened some doors they'd never would've opened. So that's my message. Message me, I'm open. Reach out.

Becky Boyland: And so he will keep you accountable.

Greig Watts: Yeah, Sharing has been in my life, going, reaching out, doing, I can hundreds and hundreds of stories of where I went somewhere or did something instead of standing still, the door opened. You know, sometimes you get rejected. Fine, try the next door and the door opens but if you don't push that door or ask or, or even ask the question, you're certainly not gonna get an answer

But actually you will never know if you don't ask the question.

Becky Boyland: That's for sure. That's for sure. This has been such a wonderful conversation. I'm so glad that you have come on the podcast. And thank much.

Greig Watts: Thank you. It's been great talking, and thank you for letting me talk.

The Coda

Becky Boyland: Greig’s story is a perfect example of why Second Verse exists. He gave himself a year to pursue music. It didn’t all fall into place at once—but he kept showing up, kept saying yes, and over time, built a career that not only sustains him, but uplifts hundreds of other songwriters along the way.

One of the parts of our conversation that really struck me was his example—and urging—for artists to say yes. We are dreamers, of course, so we’re searching hard for our big break, but somehow are willing to pass up opportunities if they’re not what we consider perfect, or important enough. But that’s just shutting down the momentum that could take us to places we never dreamed of. That’s tremendous advice for all creatives.

So your action step this week:

Don’t get stuck waiting for the “big deal.” Start with the open door in front of you. Say yes to the thing that moves your dream forward—even if it feels small. Momentum builds when you show up.

And if building your artist brand or website is your next step, visit attitudecreativity.com—that’s where I help artists like you clarify your message and establish your virtual home base from which you can share your music with the world.

Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with a fellow creative. You never know who might need to hear that their Second Verse is possible too.