A Long Hard Road: Tom Sykes on the Career That Kept Selling Him Off—and the Music That Never Left

TEASER: TOM SYKES INTERVIEW

TOM SYKES: So I, go to my apartment and I pick up the phone and I call him.

And I get this, "Hello?" And I said, "Yes, is this John Hammond?" He says, "Yes, who's this?" And I said, "My name is Tom Sykes." And he said, "Don't call me at home," and click. So I called him back and started, "I'm a musician from Virginia, and these are the things that I'm doing." And after a few minutes, he finally went, "I want you to fly up to New York. I wanna meet you." And I said, "Okay."

INTRODUCTION

BECKY BOYLAND: Welcome back to Second Verse, the show for artists whose relationship with music took the long way around.

I'm Becky Boyland. My guest today is Tom Sykes, a songwriter, writer, filmmaker, and former entertainment executive who spent decades helping other people's creative work reach the marketplace at companies like Turner, WEA, and Showtime, while never quite putting his own music out on his own terms.

He's the author of the new book, A Long Hard Road, a documentary filmmaker whose Building the Blue Ridge Parkway was just picked up by WHRO Public Media, and he's still writing and recording. His latest single is "I Don't Know For Sure."

Tom's story starts with a cold call to a stranger's home phone number pulled from a library book, a stranger who happened to be the man who discovered names you're definitely going to recognize.

We get into what happened next, why Tom calls his career failing forward, a prank involving a fake Dylan Thomas poem that says more about celebrity culture than we'd like, and his sharp, sometimes very funny take on AI, algorithms, and what happens to the part of you that needs to create while the rest of your life is happening around it.

Let's get into it.

WELCOME, TOM

BECKY BOYLAND: Welcome, Tom. I'm so excited to have you today on Second Verse.

TOM SYKES: Well, thank you. I'm really glad to be here.

BECKY BOYLAND: I'm excited to dive into just so many facets of your story, but I like to ask people when did you first fall in love with music?

TOM SYKES: Probably when I was about 14 years old, or maybe earlier than that actually. I think I was probably, um, eight or nine, I guess, is when it really started to hit me. But I didn't start playing till 14 is I guess what I was alluding to there. But yeah, as really young child, I went with my father to, um, the opening of a, automobile dealership, and they had a big band there.

And man, I heard those horns and all that stuff, and I, I just fell in love with it. It was... I just thought it was fantastic.

BECKY BOYLAND: Oh, that's awesome. I have a, a trumpet background before I got into guitar later, and so things like that, yeah, would've captured my attention for sure.

TOM SYKES: Yeah. And then there was Elvis and the Beatles and, you know, all the typical things.

BECKY BOYLAND: Absolutely. Absolutely.

RECORDS, LINER NOTES AND A PHONE CALL

BECKY BOYLAND: And did you have a- any other particular favorites, or did you play in school, and how did you start to build out your music muscles?

TOM SYKES: You know, it's strange because anytime I would get, um, a gift, I would go look at albums. I mean, it wasn't-- other kids were going and looking at toys, I was going to the, um, records section of the particular store that I went to and thumbing through it and looking. And I think one of the first albums I bought was Bob Dylan's first album,

Tom: and

TOM SYKES: I bought it because it had a lot of liner notes, and I thought that was kinda interesting.

And so, you know, that started me, uh... That started the journey right there because I was like, "Wow, this is great."

BECKY BOYLAND: I miss liner notes.

TOM SYKES: Yeah, me too. I miss the album though, the idea of being able to pull it out of the sleeve and read all the different things and the smell and everything about it I thought was, uh, fascinating. But it's coming back.

BECKY BOYLAND: That is true. That is true. And there's some really, really great initiatives for smaller artists to work together and be able to produce vinyl and, uh, just interesting things I've learned as I've talked with people through this podcast. And so it, it's really amazing, but I do remember reading everything cover to cover.

I knew who the producers were, even though I didn't know what that was. I knew all the lyrics. And so yeah, I miss that real hands-on experience with, with music, and maybe that's part of why people wanna really bring it back.

TOM SYKES: Well, I'll tell you interesting story about that. You know, you had asked about me getting involved with things. Well, that was my first album. So later on after I started to learn to play and I started playing out and everything else, I decided I wanted to find somebody who could help me, that, um, you know, I was looking somebody in the music industry.

And that liner note was written... John Hammond had produced Dylan's first album, and so I started reading about John, and I go to the library and I find a book of Who's Who, and I find John Hammond's name there with a phone number. And I thought, "Well, I'm just gonna call John." So I, I, I go to my apartment and I pick up the phone and I call him.

And I get this, "Hello?" And I said, "Yes, John, is this John Hammond?" He says, "Yes, who's this?" And I said, "My name is Tom Sykes." And he said, "Don't call me at home," and click. So I called him back and said, "John, I know you w- don't wanna be disturbed and, um, but do you have an office number?" He goes, "I, I don't just give out my number to, to people. How did you get this number?" And I told him about the books, book of who's who, and he goes, "Oh, great." So I called him back the next day and started, you know, "I'm a musician from Virginia, and I'm, you know, uh, these are the things that I'm doing." And after a few minutes, he finally went, "I want you to fly up to New York. I wanna meet you." And I said, "Okay." And that was the start of my, um, relationship with John. So,

BECKY BOYLAND: That's incredible.

TOM SYKES: You know, I don't know if you know much about who John Hammond is.

BECKY BOYLAND: Not as much as I should, but now I know I can go find his phone number, right?

TOM SYKES: Yeah, it won't do any good. He died a while back. Uh, but J- John was probably one of the most famous A&R guys out there. He discovered Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, Aretha Franklin, George Benson, uh, Stevie Ray Vaughan, and, uh, the list kinda goes on.

And I was supposed to be one of his, uh, discoveries, but he died before we got things going.

BECKY BOYLAND: Hmm.

TOM SYKES: My life.

BECKY BOYLAND: Wow. Yeah, but that's such a powerful foundation, and then you found yourself in the business, but not entirely in the business in the way that you thought that you would at that point.

CONFIDENCE AND ATLANTA MOVE

TOM SYKES: I had very low self-confidence, and it was a problem, uh, with John. He was like: "You need to build your confidence up. I can't bring you to Columbia till you get your confidence up." And I was like, "Okay." So I did a local album and put it out, and it started to explode.

It started to go pretty big, and next thing I know, radio stations are playing me, and I'm asked to do concerts. I'm opening for Firefall, I'm opening for a bunch of people, and it's getting pretty big. Well, I signed a management deal not telling John that I did it, and we have a conversation later and he says, "So what's been going on? Is your confidence getting better?" And I said, "Well, honestly, I signed a management deal 'cause it got so big." And he says, "What are you thinking?" And I said, "Well..." He said, "I, I didn't tell you to do that. This is just to build your confidence." And he said, "Send me the contract and I'll look it over." Calls me back and says, "Tom, I, I can't get you out of this, but it's only a two-year deal."

I think a two or three. But he said, "I, I want you to just disappear and work on your songwriting. You're not ready yet anyway, and you know that." So that's how I ended up in Atlanta. And that's how everything changed for me.

BECKY BOYLAND: Mm. Now, you did build quite an amazing career, though, in entertainment, and was that the direct process after that, or how did that all develop?

TOM SYKES: Yeah.

FROM VIDEO STORE TO STUDIO JOB

TOM SYKES: When I moved to Atlanta, um, I've had to find something to do for work, and I started looking around and I found a video store that needed a clerk. And I was like, "Okay, I can, I can do that. It's not gonna take too much time, and I can still work on writing." And this lady used to come in all the time, and she would say, uh, you know, " Tell me about the movies," and, you know, give us posters and stuff.

And I said, "Who... W-what do you do?" She goes, "Well, I work for a studio." And I said, "Why is a studio here in Atlanta?" She explained that the video industry was a new industry and they were... And I said, "Well, if you need anybody to work, call me." She did.

BECKY BOYLAND: Wow.

TOM SYKES: And I ended up getting a job as a marketing person, um, in the Southeastern United States for Embassy Pictures. That's how that transition happened

BECKY BOYLAND: That's amazing.

TOM SYKES: I end up with Embassy and, um, still working on music, but, you know, I found a new job and in the meantime I got married and, um, and I wanted to support the family. So, um, they end up moving me to Chicago about the time I'm getting ready to go back to John saying, "I think I'm ready." Well, before I could get there, he died.

So that kinda ended that thing, and so I started to just pay attention to my career while working on my music in the, uh, in the meantime.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah.

TOM SYKES: I never gave up. I mean, it's like e- I mean, even today as an old man, I'm still writing, I'm still playing, I'm still recording, I'm still putting albums out, I'm still doing...

Um, I wrote a screenplay for, uh, John Wesley Hardin. I wrote that book that, uh, that's out there now, A Long Hard Road, and, you know, that was actually... The Long Hard Road was something that started out, I wa-wanted to tell my grandkids a little bit about what I did 'cause my career really did go a lot of places.

ENTERTAINMENT CAREER HIGHLIGHTS

TOM SYKES: And after I started writing it, I started looking at it and I went, "You know, there's a thread in here that, um, you know, I keep losing jobs and, uh, you know, the company would be s-sold to somebody else." It's like with Embassy Pictures, they were sold to Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola had to sell them off, and then I went from there to a company called Vestron, which is the company did Dirty Dancing.

BECKY BOYLAND: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

TOM SYKES: and I worked for them and then they got sold.

And before they got sold, one of my friends from Embassy went to work at Turner Broadcasting, and so I ended up with a job there as the national sales manager for their video division, so... Then from there I went to WEA, which was the Warner Electra Atlantic group. It was their distribution arm.

From, uh, there, I went to, um, a little company called, uh, Purple Moon, which was owned by, a co-founder of Microsoft.

That didn't work, and so I ended up going out to the West Coast with, with this little company called PM, which I originally thought stood for Plot Missing because the movies s- the, the movies were so bad.

Uh, but it turns out that I learned more from them than I did anybody else.

They had a old, um, Jordache jeans factory, and they turned that into a production studio, and their whole thing was they were gonna make movies for a million dollars and sell 'em foreign and make the million back, and domestic home video was supposed to be a ancillary business.

Well, it was losing money like crazy, and I got there and turned it around. I made 'em profitable, like, right away. So, um, from there, Showtime came at me, and they had a division that was n-not working, and, um, I mean, it, it was working, but it wasn't profitable. And they brought me in first as a consultant and said, "We'll give you a year to turn this around."

And I said, "Okay, I'll do it." And I turned it around, and then they made me a vice president. And then from there, and this is the last one, I promise. Then from there I went to, I started my own company, um, which was New Light Entertainment. Well, there was another company after that. But I got a distribution deal from Universal Music Group to distribute both records and, uh, film.

So that's kinda where I started from there.

BECKY BOYLAND: I love all that because you had both this, these great successes and also the, the challenge of an industry that changes so rapidly and changes hands so rapidly. And I know that your through line of having music as this constant companion, but it not really factoring so much directly into that, had to be both comforting and frustrating in the process, but at the same time, you're, you're making great successful moves.

TOM SYKES: Yeah, I used to tell people I failed forward, um, because it really wasn't-- The reason I did it so well was because, it wasn't something personal to me. I mean, it was just... I liked the business. I had a good time with it, but it wasn't, it wasn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to do music, and I always started to regret it.

BECKY BOYLAND: There just were so many different directions and yet the music was, was just sort of there in the background for you.

LIVING A DOUBLE LIFE

TOM SYKES: Yeah, well, I kinda had a double life. Um, you know, the people that I knew on the creative side, the musicians and stuff were... They thought of me as being a musician. They didn't think of me as being a business guy, so they were always amazed that I did business.

And on the business side, they were always amazed that I did music.

So it's like, "Oh, well, okay." But, um, I'm my own person, I guess.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, it's an interesting tension, and it's really, it's really kind of funny that there was that sort of interpretation from each side that, "Oh, aren't, aren't you on our side? Aren't, aren't you one of us?"

TOM SYKES: Yeah, it's, you know, that team mentality. Are you on the team? You it's like, well, not really. So it's, uh, funny.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, yeah.

CREATIVE CIRCLES AND COLLABORATION

BECKY BOYLAND: So in trying to keep the music kind of going all along, what were some of the ways that, that you were kind of manifesting that throughout the career or alongside the career?

TOM SYKES: Well, the thing that I, I knew is I was always working on songwriting, but what became important was to try to get into the studio and try to, um, build a rapport with the musicians that were around me. The problem was, is that when some of these companies would sell or change or things, I would move.

So building up that base became next to impossible. Um, but I always was working on trying to get back in the studio, and when I finally landed in Los Angeles, um, I was in Los Angeles for nine years. I built up a pretty good, group of musicians. My record company, I signed, I think it was nine artists, and they were really good artists and, you know.

A lot of Bonnie Raitt's band was in, uh... Johnny Lee Schell, who was her guitar player for 30 years, he was in there, and I would hang out with, with him in his studio and stuff.

BECKY BOYLAND: Sounds like great company.

TOM SYKES: Yeah, it was, it was really fun. I mean, I would end up with, uh, a, a lot of people that were on both sides. I mean, you know, it's like I became, uh, friends with Bryan Cranston on the movie side and, you know, a lot of music people on the other side.

And I don't know if you know who you know, I'm sure everybody knows who Bryan is, but, um, he's a super nice guy, and, uh, he came to me when I was at Showtime with a movie he had made for his wife and was trying to sell it, and I bought it from him.

BECKY BOYLAND: Oh, wow.

TOM SYKES: So... And we became friends because he's a really nice guy.

BECKY BOYLAND: That's so cool. That's really cool. And, and I, I know that that is not a foregone conclusion.

TOM SYKES: No. Believe me, I've worked with a lot of people through my career that it's just like, you know you're making a movie, right? You're just, you're acting like you're somebody else. You're not, um, you know, you're not a brain surgeon, that's for sure, so. And I feel that way about myself too, so

BECKY BOYLAND: Well, and the really interesting thing too about the, the people who tend to gather around in music spaces realize that you have to be a cool person. You have to be a person that people want to hang out with, and that just lends to longevity. And, uh, of course, that is and should be true in the rest of the entertainment business, but that's not always the case.

Um, but it is really good when we all figure that out

TOM SYKES: Yeah. And, you know, it's kind of strange because I, I kinda came up with this theory after a while that the people who were really talented were generally pretty nice. They were very accepting of other people's work, and they were interested in what they were doing, and, um, they didn't look down their nose for it.

But the people who didn't have as much talent were more critical and talked about how bad everybody else was and how wonderful they were. And it's like, you know, I'd rather hang with this guy who, um, you know, is just curious about, things. 'Cause it's hard to make creative things.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah.

TOM SYKES: You know, it really is.

It's, um... And you question yourself constantly at it. So I don't know if you've had a chance to listen to any of my music yet or not, but

BECKY BOYLAND: I have. It's, yeah, it's really great. I was so glad to hear it and to have this opportunity to talk as well, and, and, and it is. There's so much of our heart and soul that goes into what we're doing, and the only thing better than that is doing it with other people who have that same sensibility, and that just lifts everything.

And you f- you feel this, not only the validation that we all want, but the camaraderie and the power of recognizing we made something, and how, how really, really beautiful that is. It's not just fun. It's, it's really beautiful. And, um, and then it can go someplace and have that same impact on somebody else.

So it's, uh, it's far beyond, you know, just what we can do, and that's why it is so great to find those great people to hang together with and do this kind of work together with.

STORY OVER GEAR

TOM SYKES: Well, you know, it's interesting because a lot of times, um, when I would talk to filmmakers and musicians as well, they would talk all about equipment all the time. And it's like, you do know that that's just tools, right? That, you know, it's the story. Uh, I had a boss one time who, who asked me, he said, "What movie could we make that would work for people?" I said, "I, I have the genre." You know, he wanted to know the genre that was working at, at the time. And I said, "By the time you make a film, the genre's changed with what people are watching." I said, "But my-- I have a completely good answer for that. The genre is good. Tell good story. It doesn't matter what it is. If it's a good story, it will work."

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah.

TOM SYKES: So he fired me.

BECKY BOYLAND: Oh no. But that insight is so, so true, and I, I think that maybe that idea has started to be why we do have so many of these shows that are what will get called genre bending or just so much more of an overlap of things that are both really funny and also very deep or dark or dramatic. And I think back about 20 years ago, there were so many shows that maybe had one or two seasons and then found a new life in streaming, and everybody's like, "Why didn't they make more of this?"

Because they're so great now, but they were so early then. And that type of shift I have seen in music also, because several years ago I worked at a radio station where we had an oldies side, and then we had satellite radio basically that was streaming in for most of our playlist, which was '70s through the current music.

And that was a completely new thing to me because growing up, never the twain shall meet. None of these genres ever overlapped. And suddenly now you had 40 years of music all in one fell swoop, and my nephew, who was pretty young at the time, would hear one of these songs on the radio and think it was amazing, and I'm like, "Yeah, it was great when it came out 30 years ago."

And it, I think, started to kind of build that perfect storm for people to start creating playlists in just a few years after that and listen to things that side by side that never would've been heard together. And I think it's both good and, and can be bad. It sort of flattens things, but at the same time it also creates so much more overlap and fusion and I think broader palettes too, because we get to listen to so many different things.

But it's nice when all these things can kinda play together nicely.

STREAMING AND ALGORITHM PROBLEMS

TOM SYKES: Yeah, I, you know, I've al- always thought that, um, the idea of the internet is great, but the execution is falling way short. One of the things I used to really love about albums when we talk about the, uh, LP is that I'd buy it because I liked one song, but once you put the needle down and let it run, you weren't gonna hop up and change that, so you would let the whole side play.

And some of the songs that at first I didn't really like, later on I went, "Oh my gosh, this is fantastic. I love this. This is my favorite song now," because it, uh, it, I got exposed to it. And it... And, you know, it's something that who-- to me, something that's really good doesn't necessarily have to hit you immediately.

Because a lot of times when something's really catchy and hitty and everything else, it's, um, it sounds great and you love hearing it and everything else, but you tire of it. y- you can tire of it pretty easy. Some things don't. Some things are just fantastic. But, um, you know, the, the hidden gems is what I miss, you know?

BECKY BOYLAND: That is huge

TOM SYKES: and algorithms take that away. They try to get things to all kind of just sound the same, so. Well, you know, I'm not trying to, uh, downgrade all that stuff because I think it's amazing. But one of the people that I worked with, I don't know whether it was Mo Ostin at... We used to have these big conventions at WEA where all the, uh, labels were together, and we'd have people come like Rod Stewart and stuff that would play for us, and...

But Mo was head of Warner Brothers, and I think it was him, it might've been Doug Morris, said that, "You know, we're reaching a weird phase now. If you turned on your tap and Coca-Cola came out of your tap, Coca-Cola has no more value. We're starting to approach that with music with all this streaming." And thought about that and I thought, "Whoa, you know, he might be right about that," that, you know, you've taken some of the specialness out of it. Everybody likes to talk n- negative about the major labels but they were necessary and they served a pretty good purpose. They weren't always right and they weren't always fair to artists, but they also kept a lot of people who shouldn't be playing away.

There was a kind of a m- I, I called it a, a mid-tier of people that were, uh, able to make a living. They weren't huge but they were able to survive and to keep doing what they wanted to do, and that seems to be disappearing. It seems like it's all or nothing, and I think that's kinda sad because, you know, what do you do with jazz musicians?

What do you do with classical musicians? What do you do with the things that are outside the norm? How do people discover it, you know?

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, it's, obviously, we think it's a great thing to have direct access to be able to upload our music and build any kind of indie infrastructure around ourselves. But it is absolutely true. We don't have the tools and the resources that labels used to have that they don't really necessarily all have anymore.

But just that simple artist development experience and someone to help manage all of the details instead of having to wear eight million hats to be an indie artist, there are a different set of barriers to entry, and then there's just so much that can flood the zone. So they're really, I think, is more of a groundswell of how can we start to build serious indie artists, whether it's a full-time thing or just feeling like we're fulfilling our purpose, but working together and in, you know, places like this, being able to celebrate those who are serious about it and that we care about the independent artist and what that all entails, because it is easier and harder than it ever was

TOM SYKES: Yeah

BECKY BOYLAND: in different ways.

TOM SYKES: Yeah, I, completely agree with that.

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AI AND AUTHENTIC ART

TOM SYKES: You know, it's interesting because, uh, you know, AI has become a big thing, and it's, um, it's really scary. It's not scary to me because of what it produces. It's scary to me that somebody can say, you know, "Produce me a dance video with, uh, somebody who likes blue pants," or not a video, but m- it makes a song, and it makes it, and then they, they go out and try to release it. Well, all of a sudden the market starts getting flooded with all these people who really don't know how to play music. They really don't know to write. They don't know all that stuff. So where are the people that really have talent?

How are they gonna break through that whole massive group of people, uh, you know, of AI, you know? So that's a, that's a real, that's a real issue, you know?

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah. Yeah.

TOM SYKES: And if they used it as a tool is one thing, um, but to ask it to do your work for you, you know, that's a, that's a, that's a tough thing. So I don't know where that's going.

I have no idea.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, and I, I never understood why we wouldn't be more focused on let's have AI do the things we don't wanna do and things we can't, uh, do in a unique way. Like, if I could have Rosie the Robot from The Jetsons do my laundry, I'd be so happy because that would free me up with more time to, to do creative stuff.

And that's, that's the view. I want it to be a support or these tools and resources to be something that frees me for the creativity, or helps me with admin, or some of those other things that can be really time-consuming. But there, there's another factor, I think, about it too, that it, it feels like, oh, this is one more way I can do stuff by myself.

And music is so innately collaborative. Even if you write by yourself, which I do a lot, I do co-write, but I also write a lot by myself. I produce myself and, and I still think that's great, but the collaboration part of it is I'm releasing music to people so that they can hear it, they can enjoy it, they can receive it.

And so when the concept of actually collaborating drives people to think, "Eh, I can just do it myself with this computer over here," that's very, very sad to me. And I feel like it's just a giant adventure in missing the point because music has always played that role in society. It's always been something to bring people together around a common concept, and this just feels like yet another disruption in a way that could be incredibly unhealthy, more than it already is.

TOM SYKES: Well, you know, the-- to me, it's like the thing people need to realize is AI hasn't lived the life you've, you've had. It hasn't had the love that you've had. It hadn't had the heartbreaks. It hadn't had the all the things that happened through your life. You know, it's just taken, um, whatever's been out there that's been successful and slapping it together and making it sound good.

I mean, I honestly went and experimented with some of my old songs and put them in there and see what it would spit out because I was curious, and I was like, "Oh my God, we might be in trouble here," because it spit stuff that sounded pretty good, pretty, you know, fairly quick. But I don't wanna... that's not what I want. I don't, I, I... You know, that's not really fulfilling what I set out to do. What I set out to do is communicate, you know, not having something else communicate for me. I wanted, um, you know, music is a wonderful form of communication because it not only gets the, um, the voice or, uh, the writing, it also gets the emotion.

I mean, that's like with a film. If you look at a film without music, you get, you get the story, but you don't get the emotion. So it's, uh, um, you know, it's a, it's a really neat avenue, I think. You know, it's... And, you know, it doesn't have to always be real serious. I mean, sometimes people just wanna have some fun, they wanna dance, they wanna do other things.

But I like the genuine part of it. Always have. Um, you know, so yeah, I think you, you brought up some really good points

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, and, and y- you've had some really great insights. I, I'm gonna be thinking about these for quite a while. And, um, but I love, too, that you pointed out that sometimes it is just stuff for fun, because AI would never have made Love Shack.

TOM SYKES: Yeah.

BECKY BOYLAND: And we all love Love Shack. I mean, who doesn't love Love Shack? Um, and there's just so many other, other songs that have become anthems that maybe are just pure silliness, but they're, they're uniting in a way because of that.

And you had another really great insight, too, about the algorithm is making so many decisions around indie artists and whether or not we get heard, and that's where I think it's so very important for, um, for fans of any level, if, if you like what you hear from someone who's put their heart and soul into their music, take those very small and completely free steps to engage and help elevate artists, because it doesn't just happen by someone scrolling by.

But, um, there's just this, sometimes a lack of willingness, I think, for people to take that little, tiny bit of action just to say, "Hey, I support you. I think what you're doing is great."

BREAKING THROUGH AS INDIE

TOM SYKES: Well, you know, that's really an interesting point. I mean, the truth is, is that, you know, if you look at Spotify, they're saying to you, um, uh, "You need 1,000 people a month listening to you before you can advertise." It's like, you're telling me I need to have 1,000 people a month before I can, before I can advertise?

What's the point? I mean, it's like you... I have to work to give you money? That's, that's craziness. How... So how is an artist supposed to build a following if you can't get out there? And, you know, same thing YouTube. You know, YouTube is, you know, telling me, in order for you to get to a point where you can monetize, you need to have 4,000 hours of views and you have to have 1,000 subscribers.

That's great. I've got 9,000 hours of views and I've got 721 subscribers. It's like... And I've got till February to, to make that up. It's like, you're trying to make me tap dance here. And it's like, I want to be able to reach people and I want you to be able to help me, but why are you making this so difficult?

BECKY BOYLAND: It's a popularity contest though from the side of Google, and thinking about this in terms of internet marketing, 15 years ago when content marketing was the thing, everybody said, "This is great. Let's use good content," and then immediately broke all the rules. And so instead of good content, it was flood the zone with content.

And so ultimately, that whole venture kind of failed, and we had to start pulling content back because everyone was overwhelmed and everyone was exhausted. But what you started to see was snippets of content would get elevated on Google Search engine, not because they were necessarily true, not because they were necessarily the best, but because they had the most traffic.

So they won a popularity contest, the thing we've all wanted to get away from since high school, and here we are, this is how it still works. And now that the first thing you see in search engine results is AI, it's still the same principle of the snippets, it's just that AI is now making up stuff, and it's the same sourcing.

It's still based on popularity, and it's really scary that that's how that goes. But it's really hard to break through that, that barrier without some kind of viral moment or really just people helping each other, and we're really struggling with that last part of it a lot.

TOM SYKES: My book that I wrote, you know, I initially didn't plan on releasing it till I started to figure out that common thread. But with a book, you're still able to make some money. I mean, it's like, kinda like the old days of records where, okay, it sells for this much and I get this percentage, and it's not the streaming thing that, um, you know, we're gonna give you a, not a penny, but you a fraction of a, a, of a cent.

So you think, "Okay, how do I get people to know about this, and how do I get people to..." You know, it's, it's, it's kind of a funny book. It's, you know, there's parts that are really funny and, uh, you know, how do I get out there? How do I do this? How do I break through? I'm an old guy. I'm not some young kid that's, you know, goes, "Hey, I know how to do this," and you know.

And then everybody's coming at you saying, you know, " Get a million streams. Get this and get that," and you know. And it's like, how do you build a real audience now? That's becomes my question, and it's like who is YouTube testing? Are they testing the type of people that I would appeal to, or are they testing somebody else and saying, "Whoops, doesn't work," you know?

And n- that's where you start to go, "Is my-- Is what I'm making bad that's not working, or is it, um, everything around it?" So that's, you know, that's a, that's a dilemma that I... You know, I don't think what I'm making's bad. Of course it's me. What am I supposed to say? You know, but, um, I've gotten enough feedback in, in my life that, you know, you start to realize that, I became pretty talented at doing a lot of different things.

Not great at any one thing, but I could do a lot of different things. so. You know, WHRO and, um, and Tidewater just picked up the documentary that I made for, uh, building the Blue Ridge Parkway. And, um, you know, I made a documentary about, uh, um, a woman's college in Lynchburg, Virginia. It used to be Randolph-Macon, but now it's just Randolph College.

They have a great art, um, collection of American artists, and they have a museum in back of the school, and so I did a documentary about that. That was fun. I really enjoyed it, so.

BECKY BOYLAND: And I think it really does, come back to people supporting each other when it does come to getting our music heard and getting it out there. And, and like you said, having feedback, especially when you're trying to break into something, and you wanna know, "Am I just absolutely crazy, or is this something that is worth pursuing?"

So there's a great healthfulness in making sure that we do have those voices around us, because it is hard, and it's hard in ways that are not just about having good quality and expecting that that's just going to break through, because we know it's not because some things are kinda stacked against most of us.

Um, but I don't wanna discourage people necessarily or unnecessarily, because there is, uh, there is an extent, too, where we just need to push through. But I think there's another really important thing, because with music being the through line that you've spoken of, there's also the scenario where it is our constant companion, and maybe the life that it has is not necessarily to be the thing that supports everything, but that we do the other things that support being able to do the music.

And I think that that is, is something that we should really talk about.

TOM SYKES: Yeah, and I think you're absolutely right with that, and I think it's important for people to understand, you know? For some reason they kinda feel like it just appears, you know? And it's like you don't know how many hours were spent trying to learn the craft, and then you have to go out and you have to buy equipment.

You don't understand how expensive that equipment is. Or if you go into a studio, how much that's gonna cost, and there's expenses to all those things, and you would like to keep, um... You'd like to keep producing stuff. So, you know, you're, you're looking for ways to monetize, and it's like, you know, you wouldn't come over and, you know, cut my shrubs and say, "Well, I'll give you a half a cent. Is that okay?" You know? I mean, so it's like, y- you know, at least... The least you could do is if you like it, push the button that you like it, if that helps them a little bit, you know? And it's like thank God there's people like you doing what you're doing that is making people aware of people they might not know about, because that is, um, that's key.

You know? 'Cause it, I'm sure glad you took the time to interview me.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah. Yeah, and it's, it's just so important too that our definition of success is not one specific thing. It's not selling out stadiums. It's not millions of streams, or even those thousands of streams before Spotify cares to pay you. There are so many different ways to define success based on what we want out of it, but we can definitely say that if all these independent artists that really are making wonderful human music don't get their message out there, then that's a failure for everybody.

Because there are so many great songs out there and so many great messages that people resonate with, and there is an audience. It's harder to find them, but there is an audience for all of that, and if that just disappears, it doesn't happen at all, or if it's almost impossible to get to, then that's, that's depleting us as a society, and I think that's the real tragedy

TOM SYKES: Well, I, I, I agree.

DREAMS SUCCESS AND PERCEPTION

TOM SYKES: You heard me talk about the common thread in the book, and what I found was there's so many of us, probably the majority of us, had some type of dream that we wanted to do in our lives.

Um, uh, whether it was, you know, cooking, being a chef, being, um, making crafts, doing every different thing, being a dancer. And society will kinda try to kick that out of you.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah.

TOM SYKES: It's very rare for somebody to be able to get through that. And I thought, well, you know, what my book really is about is that you pursue the dream, however the dream comes out might be the path that it was supposed to be all along.

So, um, you know, don't give up, you know? But I'm also not saying if you follow your dream and you work really hard, you're going to succeed, because that's completely false. Um, not everybody succeeds at everything they set out to do. Sometimes it's a matter of luck.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, I love that so much, and that, that dream sometimes is weaving itself i- in and out, and is actually forming touchpoints along the way. And maybe you didn't plan it that way, but sometimes when you get to, uh, especially some of the conversations I've had about some of the deepest music that we're able to make is because we did live life that didn't go the way we wanted, and so now we have stories to actually tell and talk about.

And, um, and I love what you said, too, about, you know, that our life, our society does try to beat that out of us. And we have this very weird relationship, though, because we elevate celebrities sometimes far too much, and yet at the same time we're like, "Don't go do that."

TOM SYKES: Yeah.

BECKY BOYLAND: Like, these people are amazing. Give them all your money, but just don't be one of them.

And it's, it's just so strange, and yet we love their stories of how they got to where they were. And so now this is an opportunity to love those stories of how, how maybe we didn't get to there, but we, we've gotten to places where what we say now can have an effect and be a blessing to people.

TOM SYKES: You know, I, I put, um, a little video on YouTube about something that I tried years ago. I got into a conversation with people, and they were-- You know, I was talking about, you know, music or writing and everything else, and they said, "You know, that's fine for those other people who are doing it, but, you know, you need to think about it."

And I said, " Well, do you like poets?" And they said, "Yeah." I said, "Let me go get one of the, um, poems I wanna read to you." And I went into the other room, and I just made up a poem, uh, and just, and wrote it down and brought it back in and said, "Okay, this is a, a poem by, um, Dylan Thomas." And they talked about how wonderful the poem was, about all the inner meaning and all the different things.

And I said, um, "This wasn't written by Dy-Dylan Thomas. It was written by me." And, you know, the conversation immediately changed. It's like, "Oh, well, you know, you probably... You weren't going for the wri-" You know, it's like, wow. So perception is so much of why somebody's successful and somebody else is not successful.

Sometimes it's just people told you that this is the success, that this person's really successful, and people follow that, you know.

BECKY BOYLAND: Right. Right. And we think about the artistic masters, and now being so many years removed from many of them, there's always this idea of, well, they did it for the love of the art, and it's like, yes, and the money of the patrons. They d- they didn't do it for free, and they couldn't. They would not have had the ability to do that because they needed to be able to, obviously like the rest of us, eat and live, and all those kinds of things.

And many of them that were celebrated and didn't get anything during their lifetimes did not live well and did not live long, and we could have had so much more from them had they been supported. So yeah, it's, it's just this very weird thing that we are very selective and choosy about who we wanna support and what we consider a good endeavor, and it's almost like you have to r- reach this certain level before then we're just fawning over people.

But ultimately, yeah, it's just so important for those of us who are artists, and we are artists whether or not we've achieved some measure of success, um, that we're doing what we're doing and making our voices heard and making our music heard.

TOM SYKES: Yeah, I think that's, uh, uh, that's absolutely, um, important. I mean, it's, um, you know... I don't know how America got to the point to where age and beauty mean everything. It, it's like, you know, really? Uh, you know, uh, you know, I, I, I just think that's awful. It's like, you know, so people who have lived a life, you know, they don't all look a certain way, and they aren't all 20 years old and, you know.

I- it's like, you know, uh, it's like you're missing a big audience here. The label that I told you I started with Universal Group was, uh, I was trying to make music or have a label that 35 and above. It's like, hey, the labels, everybody's doing stuff that's great for younger people, and I, I admire them for what they're doing and everything else, but there's a massive audience that's underserved.

I mean, I'm sorry, I love the Rolling Stones, I love the Beatles, but how many times can I hear them and not hear something new, you know? I think that's changing a little bit now, but, you know, that's

BECKY BOYLAND: I, yeah, I think a lot of it's still kind of underground in a way, but there's at least a bit more sense of, hey, there's depth here. There's good stuff here, and there are becoming more outlets for people who are not, you know, on the cover of a magazine, and I think that gives a lot of hope. And there are also a lot of other avenues like sync music and, and opportunities like that, that it doesn't matter.

What matters is your music in that case, and that your music is serving the purpose of, of the project. But it's just, yeah, so really important and so good to hear when there are opportunities for, for those of us who I think a lot of times worry we missed the boat, but there's more of an appetite now.

And so buried in the midst of this sea and ocean of AI stuff and, and less than skilled stuff, there is still a great growing indie movement, and that gives me a lot of hope.

TOM SYKES: Yeah.

FINDING YOUR UNIQUE SOUND

TOM SYKES: Well, you know, maybe it was the wrong boat that you missed. Maybe the next boat coming along is gonna be the right one. So, you know, that's, that's a, a definitely a way to... You know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna quit because I've gotten old. I mean, it's like, are you kidding me? You know? And I, I had people tell me, um, a lot through my career, "Maybe you should try country."

It's like, you don't understand. I do what comes out of me. I'm not trying to fit a genre. I'm not trying to be, um, I'm not trying to fit in. I'm trying to be unique in what I do. That's the, um, that's the thing that's, you know, to me, really important, is being unique. Um, and I'm not saying I'm, you know, out there or anything else, but I'm, uh, I think I have found my sound.

Um, I think it's something that once you listen to me for a while, you find it's uniquely Tom Sykes. You start out listening to somebody, you're gonna compare them. You're gonna say, "Oh, they sound like this," or, "They sound like that." But after you listen to them a little while, then you all of a sudden you realize...

I remember when Tom Petty first came out, I thought, "Oh, he sounds kind of like Dylan." And then I started to realize later on, he's not like Dylan. You know?

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah.

TOM SYKES: I didn't know they'd become buddies, but.

BECKY BOYLAND: That's a really great insight too, because when you first get into creating your music and producing your music, I agonized for a long time over what was my sound, and then it was almost reverse engineering it, because after I'd finished several different tracks, I found the sound was already there.

I just didn't realize it, and then I could dial it in and be more intentional about it. But it was, it was kind of a fun surprise. But before that, it was exhausting and overwhelming trying to figure out who, who do I sound like? What do I sound like? What's me? And once you really kinda get that, then I think that's perfect to own that, and I, I love that approach of what you're doing.

TOM SYKES: Oh, thank you. I, um, I certainly, um, I'm not gonna quit doing it. I I'm, know... I, and I don't know why I do. I, you know, am I desperate for attention? No, I don't really feel that way at all. But do I want people to, uh, get me? Yeah, that would be nice. That'd be real nice. You know, all of us want that, you know.

I--

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah

TOM SYKES: So it's, um, you know, I, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to let some other people know who I am and what I do. They may not like it, I don't know, but they might. But if I get one or two people, I'm, uh, I'm thrilled

BECKY BOYLAND: Well, I'm honored too. Thank you.

NEW RELEASES AND WHERE TO FIND TOM

BECKY BOYLAND: Can you tell me a little bit more about your latest project and what people can look forward to and be excited about with that?

TOM SYKES: I just finished putting up a song that, uh, I just released not too long ago, it's out there on everything, and my book came out in June, so I'm still working, trying to work that some.

Um, I'm going through a documentary that I'm trying to put together. And then I'm also, um, uh, I wrote a screenplay about John Wesley Hardin, and I'm trying to turn that into a book. So, uh, I wrote that with a friend of mine from Lionsgate and, um, it never got made. I had Randy Travis and a bunch of people interested in it, but it just, it just, you know, the economy fell apart.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah.

TOM SYKES: So I'm working on that, and I'm trying to get back to writing music again. I'm not able to go but so long without it, it just going, I, I really wanna start working on this again.

BECKY BOYLAND: Well, how can people find you and find all of these, um, projects that are the ones that are out and available and stay in touch with what you're doing?

TOM SYKES: Well, the main, uh, central place is through my website, which is tomsykesmusic.com. And from there it can take you to the YouTube or Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever, whatever "in" there is, you know? Um, you know, I don't have... You know, I'm not really good with all the internet stuff. It's like my Instagram stuff looks, mm, pretty terrible 'cause I haven't known what to do with that stuff.

I'm, you know, it's like okay. So I came up with this idea of I'm gonna do one minute on the Long Road and tell stories, you know? And I, I just finished telling the story of, um, the can opener and how it was invented f- uh, 50 years after the can, which I, like, I found that kind of funny.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, nothing like waiting forever to solve a problem, right?

TOM SYKES: Yeah. You think they have it all together when they're thinking of it, you know? did another thing where the guy who invented cruise control was actually blind, which, which is true. But, um, you know. Then I tried telling some of my stories from childhood, like, uh, dirt clod fights and, you know, how I...

You know, most people don't even know what that is anymore. But, hmm, I don't know. But I'm, uh, I've got a few songs that I've, I, I'm, I wanna get back to. Um, there's one that, uh, I started the lyrics to, it's called "A Face In The Window," and, uh, I have to figure out what I'm gonna do with that. So don't look for it 'cause it's not out there yet. But do come fi- you know, if y- if your audience, uh, wants to look for me, please do, and please subscribe and help me, at least on YouTube, go help me try to get to the, uh, thousand so I can make, you know, 50 cent a year. It's, it's important.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Absolutely. Well, this has been a delightful conversation, and I have, I've really enjoyed having you, Tom.

TOM SYKES: Oh, thank you, and I've really enjoyed the, uh, thing. I'm so glad there's people like you out there. I think that's a, that's a really important thing for all of us and, you know, thank you for doing this, and I wish you nothing but success with it. You know, that's, that's, uh... I, I think you serve a great purpose

CODA

BECKY BOYLAND: Tom, thank you. That was a wild ride, and I mean that in the best way. Here's what I keep coming back to. Tom spent decades getting other people's creative work in front of an audience: records, films, whole companies, while his own music sat in the background of a career he never actually sought out.

And the reason wasn't talent. By his own account, it was confidence. John Hammond, the man who discovered Bruce Springsteen and Aretha Franklin, told him flat out, "You need to build your confidence up." That was decades before Tom finally sat down and wrote A Long Hard Road, and only in writing it did he see the thread that had been running through his whole life the entire time.

That's the part I want you to sit with. If you've been the person who helps everyone else's work get seen, at your day job, for your clients, for your friends, but your own thing is still sitting in a drawer somewhere, you don't need to feel ready. You need to write it down.

Tom didn't set out to find his through line. He found it by putting the story on paper. So if you've been circling your own story without ever naming it, that's the actual first step. Not the website, not the content calendar. Just get it out of your head and onto a page, even if no one else reads it yet.

If this conversation moved you, hit subscribe and leave a review. It's genuinely the best way to get more stories like Tom's in front of more people who need to hear them. You can also share your story by text or voice recording, apply to be a guest, or get details about sponsoring this podcast at secondversepod.com.

And now, here's Tom's latest single, "I Don't Know For Sure."

FEATURED SONG: "I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE" BY TOM SYKES