Caddy Callaghan: From Lockdown to Nashville with Rick Price

CADDY CALLAGHAN: And he said, "Can you play your songs for me?" And I played them on piano. I thought, "Oh, how is this gonna sound over the internet," to Nashville from Melbourne. But it, it turned out that he was really moved, and he loved my songs, and he said that he would love to produce my record.

When we were having that moment, I felt all the, angels and saints, like, ah, because here I was, mother of three, and I was 44 at the time, and I think I just maybe thought that level of epic dream might not be possible.

BECKY BOYLAND: Welcome to Second Verse, the podcast for artists who set music aside for a while, but never put it away. I’m Becky Boyland.

My guest today, Caddy Callaghan, says her life has had “many chapters of this book, many verses of this song.” She’s been a primary school teacher. At 24 she had a publishing deal writing children’s songs. Later she trained in hospital pastoral care. Music never left, though. In her words, she put it “on the side table like a coffee table book.”

Then came Melbourne’s COVID lockdown. She was at home with three kids including a new baby, and she signed up for an online masterclass with Rick Price, one of her teenage idols. By the end of it, he wanted to produce her record.

Today Caddy is releasing that debut one song at a time. Let’s get into it.

Welcome, Caddy. Thank you so much for being on Second Verse today.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Thanks so much for having me, Becky. It's beautiful to be here with you

BECKY BOYLAND: I'm so happy that we have this opportunity to talk, and I'd love to start off with where did you first fall in love with music, and what's your origin story?

CADDY CALLAGHAN: That's a good one.

Uh, when I was very small, that was my introduction to music, probably listening to my dad play records, my mum singing in the car, driving us to school. Uh, she would sing like Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Old Oak Tree, um, and, uh, all the, you know, she'd sing, um, Close to You, The Carpenters, and thing just, they, those songs, Willie Nelson, You Were Always on My Mind, those songs have stuck in my heart.

And, uh, I grew up, too, with a grandpa. My grandpa Don, he loved movies and music, and he would play, they'd always be playing in the background, so you'd always have... And one of them, which I've actually got, uh, the record here in my studio on the corner there, is Tootsie. That really influenced me, the beautiful music of Stephen Bishop playing, that soundtrack I love.

So I just loved how music, um, I felt it very deeply and connected with it, and I knew that it was a beautiful expression, a way to express and to feel.

So that's how I, I began and, and playing the piano. I, I, uh, learnt the piano from a young age. My dad really, uh, wanted me to learn. His mum was a wonderful musician just for her own joy, and played violin and sang, an Irish background.

It was very in the, in the genes and, and Dad said, "I think you should learn the piano." And I, he wanted me to learn violin, too. I did give that a crack for, like, a year. As an adult though, I played violin, and I found this is not gonna be good for my neck or my shoulders, this situation, so I haven't played as much.

BECKY BOYLAND: Oh, that's a good point.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Piano is where I'm comfortable. Do you play?

BECKY BOYLAND: I play guitar and I started though with brass instruments, and that was my huge passion. I, I wanted so much to play trumpet when I was a kid, and as soon as I could, I got into it and loved it, and I still love it. I still think it's wonderful, but when I picked up guitar, I realized I could accompany myself now, and it was just the best.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah, that's right. I do play guitar as well, very basic, uh, guitar because it's great for songwriting, isn't it? You can just take it everywhere and sit in the forest and be with the s- the guitar. Uh, I have a little mini Maton guitar, and I have my ukulele, which is a Maton uke. They're my songwriting, but I, I do perform with them, but really it's the piano, which is my main instrument.

BECKY BOYLAND: I've gotten better with keys because of being a producer, but it was one of those things where for the longest time I knew as much as you could possibly know about the keyboard without actually being able to play it with facility. So it's exciting now to be able to do so much more with it and, and start to kind of riff and do what I would do with acoustic guitar.

So over time, the, the fruit has, has paid off.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: That's good. It, it's encouraging to know that. I think it's good to tell everyone that too.

I, I ... If people say to me, "Oh, I've never learnt an instrument, but I'd like to, but I, you know, it's too late," or, "I think I shouldn't," I'm like, "No, you can just..." That I guess the uke, people make fun of the uke, right? maybe some people don't take it seriously.

But I think the ukulele can be beautiful. I point them towards, um, like Eddie Vedder, and Eddie Vedder playing the ukulele and, and singing, oh my gosh, what a combination. So that's a good one to, to inspire people, I think, if they wanna pick up a instrument that's a bit simpler to begin.

BECKY BOYLAND: Right. And it's really, it can be used in so many different ways, and I, when I first started getting a, a uke and then another uke and then another uke.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Oh, you've collected them. All right, so you've re-

BECKY BOYLAND: Yes, they, they do tend to multiply a little bit, but w- I have a, I have a baritone uke that just sounds so gorgeous, and it plays so nicely, and it's essentially, at that point, a four-string guitar.

And the only problem I've run into is I want those other two strings. But then I have to just go play a nylon string guitar, you know? So they're all still in the same family.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: That's funny. I feel like that too. I do, yeah, I do feel like that too when I play my uke because I guess I don't have the correct technique with this finger thing, and I do play it like a guitar, so I tend to... And yeah, I do play it probably less authentically, like, not like an original ukulele sound, but more like a mini guitar.

Um, I've written some really... I'm happy with some songs I've written. So I think it's a great little instrument. But, um, yeah, that's... So my background is, yeah, in, from when I was little learning the piano and the electone, which is the '80s keyboard, uh, the eight- '80s organ with the pedals and, uh, you know, "Funky Town" and I'd learn all the Barry Manilow hits and, um, I'd do it in group, like a group setting, and we'd have like, five of us with organs, with the electones and the teacher, and we'd do call and response stuff and improv, and it's pretty great.

Great way to learn the chords and rhythm, and, uh, yeah.

BECKY BOYLAND: Oh, very cool.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Bit nerdy. Little bit nerdy. I don't know if the electone's cool. It's, it's cool as, like, you say you play Hammond, and you're like, "Oh, that's cool" but back then the electone was not cool. It might be now.

BECKY BOYLAND: But, you know, everything comes back around, and it's so funny that we, uh, especially the nerdier we get into our music and gear and things like that, the retro vibe always, you know, comes back. And, uh, the things that we thought were maybe kind of silly or, you know, got a bad reputation for whatever reason, those are the things that people are hunting for and buying in the secondhand market.

And I, I have a Yamaha, you know, PSR keyboard that I've had for, I don't know, probably 30 years.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Wow. Yeah, that's a good one.

BECKY BOYLAND: I tried to sell it probably many, many times over the years, and it's in a closet right now, but I pulled it out a couple years ago, and I'm like, "I don't know. What am I gonna do with this thing?"

It's, it's 61 keys, but it's kinda big because it's got all the onboard stuff and everything. And then I discovered that people are looking for them, and I thought, "I'm keeping this." And when I have a studio big enough,

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah

BECKY BOYLAND: Yes, when I have a studio big enough that I can pull out another keyboard and put it on a stand, then I'm gonna pull that out and incorporate it in.

But, um, the one that I found online was totally roached. It was so destroyed, and the keys were in horrible condition, and mine is perfect.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Oh, good. That's good. Well done.

BECKY BOYLAND: It's definitely gonna stay in m- in my collection, and it'll, it'll see its day again.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: I love that. I was just saying when you said keyboard and stand, I'm gonna turn my phone and show you here. I've got... That's a keytar, and it's actually

BECKY BOYLAND: Oh, awesome

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah, it's a keytar on, on stand, and, uh, the black keys, which, um, so that's cool. Um, but it's modern. Obv- it's a Roland AX, yeah, keytar.

It's got some cool sounds, but as you say, it's all back to the... That's all become cool now. I saw an '80s band yester- oh, yesterday, Sunday, um, that were just playing instrumentals, and they were, like, jamming out to just all these cool... They had a synth and yeah, it's great.

BECKY BOYLAND: Oh, I love it. Love it.

Um, so of course, music then has been in your life all this time, but it was not your primary career. So talk about your first verse, I guess we would say.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah, right. Well, I feel like I've had many chapters of this book, many verses of this song. Uh, and I, I love that. I love that I've, I've followed... I have always had music as my main heart driver, you know, the passion. But I did think when I was in high school and was in a band, I thought, "I really do need something to support."

I knew then that I would need something to support myself, uh, rather than just go straight into bands and music and gigging. And so I went into teaching, and I became a primary school teacher, and I love children. And I'm the eldest of five, so it felt very safe and very familiar for me to know that I related to children so well, and that I wanted to have something that I knew that I could do.

And I had that love and that interest in education to be able to teach children. And then I began teaching, and I did love, I love children, as I was saying, but I found the actual teaching very, very challenging, with burnout. I really did burn out quickly because I just put my everything into it, and the classroom decorating.

I, I was a class teacher, so not music teacher. I never wanted to be a music teacher. I didn't want it to take from my music path. I was happy to teach, but i- uh, inevitably everything connects in together, and so I would teach, I'd end up teaching songwriting about maths or literacy, and the kids loved it.

And some of the best times that I did have teaching were with the guitar or the keys with the kids, and them lighting up and dancing, and we'd do like Earth, Wind & Fire, and we'd make it into maths songs and, you know, like I'd, I had that kind of, energy. But teaching is, it's, uh, all the, the politics and the paperwork, we'll say, did me in really.

And, um, I found, yeah, I found that, that really hard on my energy, which then I know a lot of people find that with teaching or nursing or caregiving, that it's, yeah, you have to really monitor how you're going and how you maintain your own self through that.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, for sure. And when you said you didn't wanna be a, a music teacher, I completely understand that because it's why I did not major in music in college. As much as I still was in the music department, and yeah, as much as I loved it, I, I knew that that structure and just that kind of format was actually going to make me hate it.

And I wanted to still love my music.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: That's how I felt too. I was like, "You can't- don't touch this," you know? Like it, I really felt very protective. And you know, actually a teacher at high school, I said to her, you know, about music, that I saw this as my path. and then I said, "But I'm, I'm gonna do teaching." And then the teacher said something terribly derogatory about teaching, but aim higher. You know? Like, as in g- like, and then come back down to teaching. I thought that was terrible at the time. I said, "That's terrible. Like, this is what..." You know, maybe she was at the point, the careers educator was at the point of being over the teaching.

She was not encouraging me to go into it. But I'm, I'm really proud and pleased that I did go and get my degree, but again, I didn't major in music. I majored in philosophy and psychology. I did the arts degree along with the teaching degree, and I saw them ... Yeah, I really had a passion for philosophy and, and psychology and the mind and spirituality as well, where they meet.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah. Oh, I love that.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah, my main thing. And then pastoral care, but that's come later. Uh, that I, I... So I followed that path of teaching.

These are my verses, was that then I left to pursue music, and I was in a, a duo called Niknak, which is a children's duo, for many years writing songs. And I was repped and at 24, I got a publishing deal.

We, um, got distribution in the US, in Boston. And, uh, where are you?

BECKY BOYLAND: I'm in Illinois

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Ah, beautiful. Yeah, I'm in St. Andrews, Melbourne, Australia. So, uh, yeah, in Boston I got the distribution, and, uh, in Canada, and, um, in the UK as well, and that was really... That was special. That was like we were actually printing out CDs, you know, and all the music to go with it, and I made like sheets for the children to have, uh, correlating like activities to do with those songs and music.

Not music teaching, but, uh, the songs were like about good values and citizenship, and the, the Americans loved the citizenship thing. This is like, this is what was being taught in schools was this good citizenship. And I was cool with that. I didn't want it to be... It, it... Look, it was the Pauline Sisters, so it was the, the actual nuns.

At that time they were cool nuns, but they, they were the ones that published it, and they wanted to put it in schools for, uh, but not, it wasn't for religious education. But the songs lent themselves towards like everybody, everyone has bad days or, um, hey, that's something friends should do, or one of my songs is, apologizing, about learning to say you're sorry.

And so it had those... It, it could've been taught in religion lessons and RE, but it didn't have to be. It could be secular as well.

And I feel like that's actually a good, um, good description of, of how I work in my adult personal thing too that, that I, I like to bring together that, uh, that good citizenship, that spiritual, um, wisdom with the heart and soul and bringing it to, to the people without it having to be under a religious context. So I did grow up Catholic, and I have that foundation that has served me, I, I feel very well, um, because it was the '80s and I didn't get any of the old school Catholic stuff. I got, I got the butterflies and the trees and rainbows and God and love and, you know, peace and, um, reciprocal kindness to each other.

I got that, that version of Catholicism, and I... that was cool. Um, so I brought all of those things, and I, I do have, uh, I am deeply spiritual in my experience of life and what I've come to realize for myself in my own process, and it really does drive everything that I, I do. And, um, it, it's, that's a, I, um, really it's a gift for me in my life to have that without it having to be of any particular religion.

BECKY BOYLAND: It's, it's similar for me 'cause I've been in music ministry in churches for over 30 years,

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Wow, I didn't know that

BECKY BOYLAND: It's really interesting because I, my first music that I released is Christian genre. Um, but it's so funny because the current music that I release now, obviously my values permeate it, but it's not specifically Christian.

But I cannot get the distributors to change, to change my genre. And I had a song that I, I pitched to a particular playlister who had a radio show, and he came back with these scathing comments. I don't even know if he listened to it, but he's, he's like, "These people should really tag their music as being Christian."

I'm like, "Th- this, this song is not a Christian song."

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah. triggered people, triggered him like,

BECKY BOYLAND: He just had it set in his mind that this is what this is. And, and so I, I laughed 'cause I'm like, "Well, I mean, maybe, but it's not, that's not..." And I, I was the co-writer on the song. I didn't even write the lyrics.

So it just made me laugh 'cause, uh, he clearly missed the whole point of the song. And so it's, it's of course still very much a part of me, but my music is lots of different places and coming from, you know, my experiences and even sometimes just stories that I craft and develop from, sometimes even a song prompt.

And so those are the fun ones because everybody thinks that every single song we write is about everything that's gone on in our lives, and I'm

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Oh yeah, that's right

BECKY BOYLAND: Most of us are too boring

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Thanks, you've prompted me that, with that one because this is a, this is something that I'm really thinking about a lot just like now. Well, I have all along, but because uh, my songs I, I usually have written them from such a personally moved emotional place. I've also got many songs that are story songs that are from uh, a prompt or someone saying something that has then, uh, you know, unraveled a song that's not specifically about me or my life.

But I would be lying if I said that, you know, most of the songs that I've written have come from something that's moved me, uh, emotionally that then has inspired me to pour out my feeling. But it's always elaborated, you know? Yeah, and I've thought about it lately because it sometimes it stifled me in my writing because I've thought, "I better not write that.

That's gonna really ... someone's gonna hear that, and they're gonna go, 'Uh-oh.'" You know? And then it's like, it's like you're writing a diary entry, and you're terrified that you go and hit by a bus, please no, but, and someone reads that and is gonna be heartbroken, you know, or really hurt. It's a little bit like that. If you re- I, I mean, I really admire writers that can just pour it all out, and you actually do know what they're writing. You know that they've just broken up with their partner, and you know that this song is about that guy or that woman or whatever. And yet everyone goes, "Yep, we'll listen to that. Yep, we pay that. We get that." I'm thinking, "Wow, what's, what, what, how no one's talking about the fact that it's actually about that person." It's like this like little mystery you're guessing, and I, maybe that's the beauty of songwriting too, that you can say things in poetic ways and get away with expressing what you want to express without actually naming or shaming.

I've wanted to name and shame a lot, but, uh, you know, usually I try to ... I, I don't, I don't really wish to put out naming and shaming songs or anything that, you know, is just like a one-up on someone or, you know, I, that's not a good energy. But the heart, the heart intention's definitely always there.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, and it's, fun to have an array of songs where some are almost a confessional. They're really personal and very, very deep, and then other times, I, I have a song that I haven't released yet, but it's a beautiful song about the aftermath of a divorce. I've never been through that. It, it was, it literally was a songwriting prompt that led me down that path to it, and it was more about the visual, the very first part of that verse, and then it led into this story.

And I'm like, "Yeah, people are gonna wonder." Or people won't care at all. They'll just be like, "This is a really cool song," and it is the artist in us that's like, "Ah, people," like you said, "are, are gonna think such and such." And I think probably for those of us who loved liner notes and got to read all the lyrics, we just assumed that every single letter was something that they had gone through.

At least that's how I always read it, and so I think that was a stumbling block for me as a writer for a while because I thought, "Oh, it's gotta be me. It's gotta be true to me," or... And it just has to be true in the sense of, of authentic and relatable, but it can be crafted, and it can be a different kind of story because it's trying to convey a truth as opposed to be a history.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Oh that's so well said, convey a truth. I love that. I'll write that one down later. Um, rather than being history.

You know, I've got another song that I've never, I haven't recorded, but it ... Because I'm, I'm not really sure where it fits, but it was when I was doing pastoral care, um, and I was in the hospital, and there was this mother in, you know, an elderly mother, um, that had lost one of her arms, and um, it was pretty, pretty sad.

She was saying that her only son, she was estranged from,

BECKY BOYLAND: Mm-hmm.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: and that she had no relationship with him. And, um, I think she, I think she had cancer and, you know, the prognosis wasn't great, and I remember she said something like, I, um, I, I think I asked her, "What would you say to him if you could speak to him again?"

I'll try not to cry now, but, um, and she said something like, "I would say it doesn't matter." And I thought, "Oh, wow." Like, whatever had gone on between them, I would say it doesn't matter, and that prompted me, and I did have to actually write and communicate things for the CPE, um, internship that I was doing, and you had to do reflections and things.

So I wrote this song, which was called It Doesn't Matter, and it was from her perspective, you know? Like, and it was some- something like the lyric was, "Let me, let me hold you with my one working arm," you know? Um, "And, and I would say it doesn't matter. In the end, like all I, all I really want is you," you know?

I thought, "Wow." So there you go. I- it's true that, that it doesn't have to be, you can be the conduit of, of the feeling and the expression of the story without it having to be your story.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yes. Yes, for sure. I had a song that I had started similarly from some kind of prompt, and as I continued to craft and construct it, I started to recognize someone I knew as essentially being the protagonist of the song. And then after releasing it and listening to it over and over as I was promoting it and sharing it, I was like, "Oh my goodness, I'm in here too."

And it wasn't entirely me, but it was, it, it was something I could connect to as well. So it was sort of like it built itself over time and kinda came back around, and it was cool.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah. They can, they, that's beautiful, like a healing song for you too. Uh, I've written songs years ago, and I'm singing them now, and I'm like, "Whoa." That's like, it's like that, that i- situation is, is actually occurring in my life now, and it's that whole manifesting thing. Like, did I write, did I sing this song so many times that this, you know, has appeared in my life?

Um,

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah

CADDY CALLAGHAN: uh, or you go back, don't you go back to songs and listen to things that you listened to when you were eight or nine, and you realize how much the, the story and the romance or the, the feeling has informed your whole belief of things. Like I've, I've looked back, even The Sound of Music, you know, or like, uh, that or, um, this is gonna make you laugh, um, like Bananarama, a lot of Bananarama's songs.

Um, I listen to that and I'm like, "Wow. Wow, I've really taken that on," you know?

BECKY BOYLAND: I remember just so loving Kenny Rogers' song "20 Years Ago."

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah, think I've got Kenny somewhere behind me here.

BECKY BOYLAND: The melody was so beautiful, and it was just, um, I, yeah, I just really latched onto it, and I was probably, like, eight. So...

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, that's when I started getting, uh, cassette tapes for, you know, Christmas or my birthday and collecting music. It would've been about eight.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, and it was, it was wild though because I was recognizing so much about the music at that point. I hadn't even started playing an instrument. I wasn't gonna start trumpet until another year. But there was also that wonder of I can't comprehend being able to look back on something 20 years ago because I was so young, and years later hearing it as an adult, I'm like, "Ah, okay.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Mm-hmm.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: I know. In the future, Becky, like we're just saying Australia is to the US.

BECKY BOYLAND: Exactly. Exactly.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: If only I could be Prince. Um,

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah.

BECKY BOYLAND: We'll be back with more after this break

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So share about this pivot though that you're making with music now, having this new project and realizing these songs that you've been working on for a really long time.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Right. So along the way, well, we'll get up to COVID times when we're in lockdown in Melbourne, and I, I had my three children were in the house. We could leave for only one hour a day. It was intense and I had a new baby. Um, and then I thought, "Well, I really need to... I wanna do something with my music if I can."

And I signed up for a master class with Australian artist Rick Price, and Rick, um, was really well-known here. He is well-known here in the... He was really had a great success in the '90s. He was one of my idols as a teenager. So he was running this master class, and I signed up for that, and at first I thought, "Oh, is this silly?"

Like, you know, I just didn't know. I, I wasn't so sure. I, I had a bit of a think about whether I should do this, um, because I've done so much on my own too that, you know, I guess it's that thing of that, um, beginner's mind, you know, going back to, like, being a beginner or a novice. So I had to work through my ego really to say, "Actually, this is, like, someone that I really admire, and I would love to learn from, um, him."

So I signed up for that, and the classes were on a Sunday morning, and they, they were really absolutely, like, incredible. Um, the connection with the people that came along and the friendships that have grown from that as well have been just absolutely priceless, and funnily enough, it's Rick Price, but with price.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yes.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Um, oh, that was a bad mom joke, wasn't it? Um, so Rick taught this, and then we had a one-on-one, uh, and session like this, and he said, "Can you play your songs for me?" And I played them on piano. I thought, "Oh, how is this gonna sound, uh, over the internet," you know, to Nashville from Melbourne. But it, it turned out that he was really moved, and he loved my songs, and he said that he would love to produce my record.

When we were having that moment, I really, I felt all the, uh, angels and saints, like, ah, because here I was, mother of three, and I was 44 at the time, and I think I just maybe thought that dream, that level of epic dream might not be possible. And whatever that means for you in yourself of what you see for yourself, um, and I've always felt and seen that, but then if life doesn't show that to you, it's confusing.

But when this happened, I really had a moment of thinking, "Oh my goodness, well, whatever this is to me and how much it means to me, this is what I've had in my energy field of longing since I was little So that was amazing. And then he said, "I don't know." The planes weren't flying, and we're all stuck. But we had these two years of being able to kind of work on ideas and just this process of going back and forward and me sending all my songs and ideas.

And then when the, when finally we could do the flying thing, and I w- I got to fly to Nashville and spend a month in Nashville with Rick, and yeah, and I, I was able to get that support from my husband, from my mum, um, my family to look after the children so that I could go and do that. And that, um, that was extraordinary.

It was absolutely beautiful. It snowed in Nashville. I don't have snow here in Melbourne. There I was making snow angels out the front of my Airbnb and thinking, "Oh." I felt like a little kid, you know? I really felt it was just really magical. And the recording, oh my goodness, being in the studio, as you know, for that amount of time and being able to just really be present with the process of that was just incredible.

Like, um, it was really sacred, and we could just spend our time, take our time, and eat beautiful food, and, and, um, you'd be q- have periods of quiet, and then just unravel or just unfurl the whole process and recorded my 11 songs.

And, um, yeah, 10 will make it to the record, and I've released, uh, my fifth one is coming out, um, in November.

It's been many years. It's been four years. Next year will be the fifth year since... And, um, that seems like crazy. However, I can put it in, I can see it for, for in another way, um, which is that it's all been part of that journey in experiencing, and that without those experiences that have happened in that time, I really wouldn't have, like, the strength and the wisdom and the I mean, it's, it's been an exceptional few years really

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah

CADDY CALLAGHAN: of growing.

I've had to grow, I think, to be ready to release it. And, uh, I mean, you can use all those words and grow and journey and wisdom and all that, but I, I do, I do stand by those words because, um, it's not been all roses. It's been hard. There's been a lot of real, really, really hard.

So even though I don't like to focus on the hard and I don't like to, um, I don't like to really put it out there either, like on Instagram or, um...

I know that many-- and I, I really do honor and respect people that do, because I do think there's a place for all of it, and it helps people to see others and what they're going through. Personally, I just for my own energy, I have to work out my sharing and my oversharing and, and where that, where that is, where that meets.

That's been another thing too, to work out what feels right for me in expressing my true self. I, I wish to do that, and I am feeling like I am relaxing into that more. But for so long, Becky, as you know, if sometimes that can get you into trouble, or if you, if you... Or you're worried about how you're gonna be perceived, or you're worried about if you really tell the truth, what that's gonna mean to others or all of those things.

I mean, some people don't even think about this stuff. I say go, go for it. If you don't have to worry about, I, I really like, that's so good and stable and well and just... But I, I have to unravel everything and feel everything and, and just make sure that I take care of myself whilst I'm doing that.

BECKY BOYLAND: It's such an important perspective to know at least some of those boundaries that we have to have, and then the, the balance of when is it healthy, and I think that's really great that you're processing it that way. When is it healthy for me to continue to share more?

Because sometimes, just like the artist being unsure about, "My lyrics, are they going to understand me and, and get me?" But you still have a little bit of a buffer there with the lyrics. But when you're just putting it out there, whatever it is, that's... It's a, it's a decision. It's a calculated risk. But sometimes it is the, the healthy journey that we have to go on to have that freedom, and other times it's, "You know, I don't really need to do this."

And so finding that balance is an interesting...

It's an interesting journey,

because I see some people too where I'm like, "Oh, man, I wish I could just, like, say everything, just like they... just like that person does." But at the same time, I don't, you know.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: I know people will just say, "I broke up with my partner, and, you know, they, they were a dick," and, you know, blah, blah. And you're like, "Whoa, whoa." Uh, Yeah, it's like

BECKY BOYLAND: pump the brakes there maybe a little bit. It's, it's sort of, it, it's funny because we all, we all sometimes are like, "I wanna do what that other person can do that they find so easy."

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah. I listen to that and I go, "Wow, that actually... That, that's so raw and real. That's like, wow." But yeah, I wonder whether the mystery, that little bit of mystery's, uh, maybe something that I'm going for.

BECKY BOYLAND: Exactly. The other side of the coin is, uh, maybe I don't really need to have all my information put out there. And so I struggle with that too, just in, in both my artistry and being someone that I can connect w- with people and that they can connect with me, and trying to figure out w- what is the balance, because we also bring our entire, um, history of relating to people and how we were raised and all of those other things.

And so sometimes there's... Sometimes it's really important to just go with our guts and, and stick with the way that we've always communicated, and other times it's healthy to kinda deconstruct and, and have a little bit of, of freedom. And it's really funny because so many coaches online, that's, that's what they'll, that's what they'll teach you, is like, "Just be raw and real and authentic and put it all out there."

And I'm like, "Yeah."

CADDY CALLAGHAN: I know. Uh, yeah, there's a p- maybe it's just a bit of there's a place for everyone to do whatever they feels right for them. Like, really, I know that, like, that sounds a bit trite, but I, I do try to think if it feels in alignment with me in the moment, and I know that I'm absolutely being authentic, then that feels right.

And then whatever anyone else, then I've, I'm letting go of that. Like, whatever anyone else takes from that or what their perception of what I'm sharing is, and that's their own journey, that's their own thing. The same goes for, like, just random shares. I don't know, when you're in a happy, high mood and you just wanna share something fun, and then, like, because that's so raw and silly or just like, "Why is she sharing this?"

Like, what's the point, you know? And you might just be in the moment and having a little thought, you wanna just put it out there and say hello, and then you look back on that and you think, "Oh, God." You cringe at yourself, you know? Well, I do. I, uh, the, and just, a- and that, that's, that's an interesting thing, and I, I hear people go, "I might delete this later," you know? Or they write it, "I just wanna share this and get this out, and then I might delete later." I'm like, well You know, maybe just keep it there as a record of what you were, going through at that time, or that, that you were excited.

I really think that when people get, um, I say pissed off or, or annoyed or irritated by others expressing themselves, I have learnt that usually it is because it's triggering something in them of whatever's going on for them in either what they don't want to express or where they would like to and can't, or there's always something that is that, that mirror that's...

I, and I look at that. If I cringe at people, if I get annoyed, if I think, " Ooh, that, that's really..." I look at where it meets me to why, why does that happen? And then I think, "Oh, don't be so mean." Or like I d- I tell myself, like I really, really try to come back to kindness and, um, and the walking, you know, um, a mile in someone else's shoes, that kind of...

We just don't know what, we just don't know what everybody else is feeling and how they're experiencing what their state of mind is, what's come before it, what's they've got coming after it. We just really can't know.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah

CADDY CALLAGHAN: I mean, we can try. I do think there are times that when you are, um, em- empathetic and you can feel on a deep level, you do tend to be able to feel into people's, um, energy and ways, you know,

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah

CADDY CALLAGHAN: and get insight.

But yeah, I, yeah, that's where I'm, that's where I meet my edge now.

BECKY BOYLAND: It's so true too that we do start to judge people very quickly based on the things that we're, we're, we're triggered by because they're things that we maybe don't like.

And so that, that definitely can be, uh, that kind of that gut reaction.

And I think that there's also this misconception that to be authentic and to be real in what we share, that that means we have to share everything.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Ah, right.

BECKY BOYLAND: And the reality is that there are s- yeah, 'cause there's so many things that we don't know about people that are, are well known because they've been able to create just, you know, some boundaries. And so sometimes maybe it's, maybe it is about just being fun and being... Sharing something that is lighter and, but still, you know, still personal and still raw you know?

So there's, there's just room for

CADDY CALLAGHAN: there's d- l- yeah, that's right. There's lots of room for it all. Yeah, and I think maybe, Becky, for me it's the thing of like not wanting to be annoying or like spam people, you know? Like, that's just where, just personally where... And then I think, well, pe- everyone can scroll pa- like, do, do what you wanna do

BECKY BOYLAND: The algorithm will help you with that,

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah. Yeah. There's no... Like, do, like, just if you're really feeling to put something out there, just put it out there and then see. And then the people that will resonate with it will, will like it and appreciate it, and those that don't won't, and that's cool, you know?

I, I, I admire that in t- teachers and in speakers and, you know, the m- yeah, all those people that like, they're not going, "Oh, if what I'm saying here, is this gonna, you know, trigger someone?"

They're pa- way past that.

BECKY BOYLAND: Exactly. And, um, and, and the... for all of the flaws of the algorithms and the, the issues that I take with them, because of, because of the corporate interests that, that are around all of those, sometimes it actually is, in this case, a little bit beneficial because when we are trying to promote something and concerned about, oh, about doing too much, it's really hard to do too much because your own followers are unlikely to see everything.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yes, right, that's what I've been trying to teach myself.

BECKY BOYLAND: Putting lots out there isn't necessarily a, a, a big problem. And the other thing is that most of us have these interests in our lives that we would talk about nonstop, and for whatever reason, musicians tend to be the ones that like, "Well, I don't want, I don't wanna be a bother to people."

And it's just

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Like everybody's checking your, yeah. not, you know? They're not checking. They really don't care mostly. Like, uh, that's the f- that's a beautiful thing too, is that there's this cartoon I saw once. It was something like, "Nobody cares," you know, and the person's slumped over sad, "Nobody cares!" You know?

And the other picture is them cheering, like, "I can just be free." Like, it's either, it's either the, you know, nobody cares, and so like I'm sad, or yes, I can just be me and express and live, and like, great. We, we really do complicate like things a lot.

BECKY BOYLAND: Exactly. That's absolutely true. That's absolutely true.

And I, I see it so much with, with us artists that we, we tend to go more the, the sad negative route. But it is very, very freeing to be an artist, to, prioritize our music and be able to put it out in front of people. And the people who don't care aren't your audience anyway.

And so it's, it's a matter of connecting with the people who do care and are like, "Your music made me feel

seen." And that's the utmost. That's, that's what we're looking for.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Absolutely. I do know there are plenty of friends and, um, that are also beautiful artists, even if it's like painting, um, visual arts, that have been terrified of, of getting an Instagram because they are so introverted, they are so personal.

And I, I've encouraged a few people over the years, "Please, please put your things out there." And that's that Wayne Dyer, "don't let that music die with you," you know? Don't, like, just, yeah, put it out there, share it. And, and the whole thing of a flower, you know, blooming. Is this Rumi or something, or, uh, Confucius or something says that, like, a flower, a flower blooms, you know, not to be kind of celebrated.

It just blooms. Like, it, it, it's, its beauty, it just is, and it doesn't seek to, to prove itself as this magnificent rose, you know? Or... That's really good, you know?

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah. Yeah. We need to be doing what we're made for because somebody's out there waiting to receive it. And I, I think that that is just such a powerful motivator, and who, who wouldn't want to know that their art that they were made to make is having an impact and truly is helping someone? And sometimes it's helping someone have fun, and other times it's helping someone know that they're not the only one that feels that way.

And that, that just is, is so moving to think about, and there are so many stories about that, and I want there to be stories someday about what I'm putting out that is related to that. So, um, yeah, I think that's really gorgeous

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Hmm. I agree. That's beautiful. That's what we're trying to do, isn't it? Yeah.

BECKY BOYLAND: So you've got how many more singles to go? Are you gonna, are you gonna release the whole album as, as singles and then release the final album or are you still working on those logistics?

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah, I am still working on those logistics, but the waterfall, you know, really along with this whole "who cares" thing, is that, like, why not give each song its time in the sun? And I know it just doesn't work in the old school model anymore. That's just not how it's...

people can do it though. They might say, "No, bugger it, I just wanna do three singles and the album, and if, and then people can have something to look forward to, to listen to the album." And, but really I just think we're in such a different climate now. Um, as you say, you could put out a song for a whole year, and like post things every day for that one song and all these different audiences, and people will find it in a new way. Just like when you find songs from 20 years ago today, and you've never heard it before. I feel like there's just no, doesn't have to be a timeline on anything any- just do what you wanna do. And for me, um, I've, I really have, it's, it's happened like that just out by necessity, um, to release the singles as I have.

And then I thought, "Hey, I'm really enjoying making these music videos, and I would really love to be able to ultimately have each one as its own complete art form And, and, and bring them out and give them that time, and whatever audience can receive them, fantastic. And then by the time that's all happened, when the record comes out, if people love music and they love your music, then they will want to listen again to that in the complete, um, group of songs.

And really it's, uh ... I've had people that have said, "Oh, don't release them all, um, you know, because then there's nothing to, like, like look forward to as a release." And I'm like, I just don't think it really works like that anymore. I, I say like seriously someone, some of the most beautiful songwriters that I know, I'd happily listen to them singing their one song for a year. It has been an unfolding mystery, like this is my first, you know, solo record.

initially it was, really the process is very slow because of finances, and I really need to ... Like, it's, we know that everyone in the music industry knows how much it costs to make records, and to produce them, and to master them, and to bring them out, and to have the graphics done, and to pay for the online promotion or the artwork or, depending on what, how you wanna do it, um, it's had to be by necessity that as well.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Um, yeah. And that, th- then that's a, I see them as chapters of a book and the verses, uh, verses of the song.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, yeah. I like that. I like that. And you still have that opportunity though to, to, to do the writing and recording and have some cohesion so that as you are releasing them, you are unfolding the story. And I think that's, I think that's a really... Even though it's a little bit of a both/and now, we are so single-driven, yet at the same time, as we build a following, people still do like to listen to, you know, a body of

work.

And so it is kind of nice to, to flow into that, that body of work. And I think we should still be writing, not all the time, doesn't have to be all the time, but more consistently writing, not just to put out singles, but writing to have a grouping of, of songs, whether it's an extended EP or an entire album, just so that we have a common thread running through that particular project because it's nice to be able to tell a story, yeah, and, and kind of have that flow can be really beneficial and very satisfying both as a writer and performer and for the listener. So it's, it's nice to have both mindsets.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Ok, I like that, I like that, Becky.

I, um, I take that on because I've already started recording my second record, uh, before I've even brought out the first, and that is with a beautiful producer that's only 15 minutes away from me here. Um, his, his name is Jay Smith, and he, he worked at Abbey Road in the '90s.

He's a master guitarist, like an absolutely, amazing guitarist, and he is an amazing producer. He's got such an understanding of production and engineering and, and he's got a beautiful, beautiful studio. It's light-filled. It's looking out at the trees. Uh, and he's become a very good friend, and we, we've got this beautiful unfolding process that's happening.

It will really begin, like, properly next year. Um, but to know that that's come along as I'm still just in the ends of wanting to release this first record, it's given me this great, um, encouragement for exactly what you're saying, that I've written these new songs that, um, are going to be that new body of work, and it will have a different sound, I think.

Well, by, by nature it will have a different sound because it's just, uh, also different instruments as well. Really, like, I'll have a few more different things that I haven't used before. so like the horns and the, uh, the slide guitar. Yeah, it's exciting. As you say, that's given me encouragement what you say about that, the next body of work and then having that coherence.

BECKY BOYLAND: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really cool.

So for someone who's been holding back, who maybe had music always alongside of them and is trying to figure out, "Is this something I wanna put some energy into and dive either back into or try it for the first time?" What would be your advice?

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Do it. Yes, absolutely do it. My advice would be to either join a, like if you're a singer, join a choir. Uh, that's something else that I held myself back from for years because I had some kind of horrible judgment of choirs. Maybe it was from high school memories or something. I just, you know, I thought, "Oh, I don't want to be in a daggy choir."

Then I went and joined one, and it wasn't daggy. It was absolutely magnificent. People were absolutely beautiful, and it brought out not only, um, the skills and qualities that you need to be able to sing in a choir and harmonize and take direction, but it gave me the confidence and courage.

We also did a lot of-- We, we went to a studio and recorded as a choir, and that studio is where I began the journey back into recording when I was terrified. Just, I was terrified, so even though I had this calling on me for all my life, when it got to a point, I was always terrified of getting a band together.

So I would encourage people to either then go and book, um, if you want to learn the guitar, go and book in for guitar lessons. "Start at the very beginning. A very good place to start." and then have that lesson, have that one-on-one, put that one hour aside every week, just one hour where you go to that lesson, and it will start to encourage you, and it will give you that confidence to put, put that energy and passion back into.

Um, I found a beautiful new vocal coach, uh, that i- was once an opera singer and went to Italy, and she's just the most amazing. She's also like a life coach and motivational. So she's got that wisdom experience and life experience, um, her name's Lisa Robert Scott, and I'm so, I feel that, I feel that excitement and anticipation that, oh wow, I can actually go and keep training in something that I love to do, and that maybe people say, "Well, why do you need to do that?"

But it's, uh, now I see it like the gym or like going to Pilates or doing strength training. It's like that's what it is. It's your practice. When you practice Qigong or Tai Chi or a martial art, you ha- you have to practice. You have to do it. So, so I would say y- yeah, this is the same thing. I've also started karate lessons.

I know I'm going all over the place here, but actually I really have. I, I've started training in karate for the discipline, for the learning of, and the coordination, you know. my teenagers, they think it's cool, but they, they also give me a lot of flack. It's pretty hilarious.

Um, learn to hold a proper, a fist, you know, a proper punch, and like, and anyway, this is what I'm talking about. It actually correlates with the music and following what you wanna do to follow your music passion. It is, is like joining karate. It will get you back into the flow of things that will give you something other than your day job or your work as a mother or, um, you know, a caretaker or corporate law or whatever you're doing.

If you wanna sing, go, go and do it. Yeah.

BECKY BOYLAND: That's fantastic advice, and it's, it's really true because we don't think about music as something that we can grow in. We just think about y- you either have it or you don't, and that is the, just the silliest lie because you have to get better at everything that we do. And so it's, it's so wonderful to, at any age, just dive in and follow that passion and learn the thing that you maybe didn't have the opportunity to when you were younger, or that you didn't realize you can actually get better at it, um, as you age.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Yeah, and there's no time limit. As long as you're breathing you can do whatever you want. It- but it is a thing. A- and I still work with it. I'm not gonna pretend that I don't. I, I really do. I can feel when I, I, I'll say it as something as simplistic as, like, you going in and out of your ego. Um, because you, I mean, if you're in your heart space and you're full of enthusiasm and excitement, you're not thinking about those, what you think is meant to happen a particular age or stage. You just are. You're just a being. You are like you're still 15 or, um, that, that's a beautiful way to be. That would be the beginner's mind thing of, like, you just keep, keep going for that as soon as the mind enters the chat and you go, " Oh, hang on a minute. Is this silly? Hang on. What?" You know, um, who goes and starts learning karate at 48? Well, you know, I, I do. I am. And that's cool. Um, I don't, you know, it doesn't mean you're gonna be a Wimbledon champion if you start taking up tennis at 50. I, I understand that. However, I'm so bold to say that I still reckon if someone was a champion tennis player in their makeup and they had the strength and the will and they wanted to train, they might get to those masters games, you know?

They, they might do it. Um, look at ... It's true. Look at those athletes that run when they're 80, right? Like, like sprint. Or there's another one that really inspires me, Becky. Her name's Train With Joan. I think she's, like, 85 now or something. She started training, like weightlifting, when she was 75 or 70 maybe.

All right? Before that, you know, she was healthy and well but just not feeling great. She started training with her daughter, and she just got all, like, buff and, and just, like, joy. Sh- I think she lost her husband and then that ga- you know, she put all her energy into training. I feel the same about anything.

If you really, really feel like you've got the power and the wellbeing to do something, then do it. And that's another thing too. There's these le- I talk about that, those levels.

Like, you've got to first of all be well, a basic level of wellness, to even think about trying to do any of these things.

if you're not well mentally, physically, emotionally, all of those can really, really hinder that go-get-them spirit, you know? So start with something simple like looking after yourself and drinking water each day, you know? Get more hydration. Get more sleep. Start with those, sleep and water, and then build from that.

Like, you can't, you really can't go wrong. Get some greens. Make some broccoli. And some good food and soup. Just make soup, drink water, and that's a good starting place. 'Cause there's no... Like, some people don't even, "Oh, what? What i- what are you talking about?" Because they do it so naturally, they do life skills 101 naturally, and it doesn't occur to them that it can be really hard.

I think as a creative and, and some- and if you feel emotion deeply, you can get really, um, you can get paralyzed by life 101, life skills, just getting out of bed. I've personally experienced and I've been around many people with severe depression and anxiety, and so you've got to first of all be okay, and then you've got to build on the okayness so that you start to feel, you know, good.

And then it also works that maybe sometimes just getting yourself out of bed, putting a tracksuit on, and going to that singing lesson or doing an online workshop, that that can then help you, um, feel better as well. It, it's a, it's a web, isn't it? It's not just-- It's not linear.

BECKY BOYLAND: Right. And it's a, it's an issue I think a lot of times too for many artists who think that we have to write from pain or from dark places. And while we can write through those things, and we can reflect on those things, and there's obviously a place for, I, I've, I've written a lot of sad songs this year myself, but taking care of yourself is really the way to be able to sustain doing this over time in whatever capacity, whether it's, whether it is, uh, on the side or whether it's at the fore, it still requires being able to be in, in it for the long haul.

And so I, I think that's just so, so, so powerful.

And how can people keep up with your music and find you on all the places?

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Well, I a- am very active on Instagram, and that's @caddycallaghanmusic. Um, I do have my website, which is caddycallaghan.com. I'm still learning how to use the website, Becky, 'cause, uh, uh, you know, like to get in, in the back end of it to actually do all the stuff to put new stuff up. That's my next thing to learn, uh, 'cause that's important.

Um, I do have TikTok, but I'm not all that active on TikTok. I've, you know, um, I find it a little bit irritating when it's just that just... Right. But what else? Um, on Facebook, I'm on Facebook. Facebook's a bit slow. Yeah, and YouTube. YouTube. I do love YouTube. YouTube would be, um, my, my favorite, um, for, for my own personal viewing.

Uh, but Instagram is where I post most of my stuff.

Um, yeah, I've got this song coming up called Solo Roam, which is, um, the fifth single of my record, and I've made a music video for that, and it's with Recliner Films in Melbourne. They are the most awesome guys, like, just brilliant filmmakers. We had a whole cast and crew.

It's just, it's just been an epic undertaking because I had this in my mind for, like, years, like years and years and years of what I wanted and what I could see, and I thought, "How am I gonna make this happen?" And then finally, you know, I just put it out to people, I put it out to many people, and it just wasn't happening with those people, and then the right people came along, and the- these guys are awesome.

Heart, head space. Everybody's in alignment, and joyful, and positive, and can-do attitude, and that makes an enormous difference, like, where everybody's just in their right place. And I could employ these people to do the job that they love to do, like the cinematographer, the colorist, the sound guy Like that was awesome.

That, and that gave me a whole nother thing, forget about me, like, this is amazing to be able to facilitate the- these fantastic artists and their own artwork doing this project.

So we've, we've brought this together, and it's gonna be released at a cinema called, um, Eclipse, which is an old warehouse space made into a modern cinema in Melbourne, and then that's on the 18th of November.

Yeah. Um, so it's a premiere, yeah, on the 18th. And you know, it's, it's invitation only, and it's, it's on me. It's not ticketed. Uh, just wish to bring this art to life and, and enjoy it with people that I know celebrate the process and me. Yeah, which is, which is something, this is something that would've absolutely terrified me like 10, 20 years ago.

Like I just was, "Whoa, how can that happen? That's what other people do." You know? That's hmm. So that's what's coming up for me.

BECKY BOYLAND: Well, this has been such a wonderful conversation. I'm so glad that we got to talk today, and thank you so much for being on Second Verse.

CADDY CALLAGHAN: Thank you so much, Becky. It's been lovely to meet you, and you're a beautiful interviewer, and the way that you frame things is, um, I really appreciate your thoughtfulness and, and how you've listened and you can hear, um, the message. Yeah, and it's, that's really beautiful.

BECKY BOYLAND: For most of her life, Caddy was terrified of putting herself out there. Now she’s premiering a music video in a Melbourne cinema. Somewhere between those two points is a question so many of us wrestle with: how much of ourselves should we share?

If you worry about posting too much, here’s the thing: your followers are unlikely to see everything you post. And being authentic doesn’t mean sharing everything. Your fans are the heroes of this story, not you. Your posts are simply an invitation, so the right person can find a song that makes them feel seen, and will appreciate it. As Caddy put it, “those that don’t won’t, and that’s cool.”

So this week, take the song you’re working on or promoting and share it three different ways: a lyric line, a moment from your process, and the story behind it. Personal, not private. Give that song its “time in the sun.”

And if you’re wondering whether it’s too late, Caddy started karate at 48. In her words, “As long as you’re breathing you can do whatever you want.”

Follow Caddy on Instagram @caddycallaghanmusic, visit caddycallaghan.com, and watch for her new single, “Solo Roam,” this month. All the links are in the show notes.

If this episode encouraged you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a musician friend who needs to hear that their story isn’t over. And if you have your own second verse story, I’d love to hear it at secondversepod.com.

Now, here’s Caddy Callaghan with “Sweet Fool.”